D20 modern worth it?

[Synicism]

Originally posted by Mistwell Nothing is stopping you from making d20M a one class game. It wouldn't that hard to do.

Having one class that is customizable to fit any character type is the same as having no character classes at all, which is the approach Mutants & Masterminds takes to character creation and advancement.

Of course, and this is me being cynical, when you design a system like that, it's a lot harder to print a zillion supplements chock full of prestige classes... or "advanced" classes as d20 Modern calls them, so that people can get the pregenerated options that WotC could have enabled people to create on their own.

 

[Mistwell]

In other words, d20 Modern is a huge book that essentially reprints all the rules changes we've been downloading, implementing, and reading about for years, plus a couple neat innovations from CoC, SW, and a couple other things.

I don't need to pay as much as WotC charges for the book just to have my list of updates and errata organized for me.

I think your handle says it all. Really, there is nothing I could say at this point about d20M that would result in a positive response from you. You have obviously concluded, without ever playing the game, that d20M is a bad system. Fair enough.

 

[hong]

Of course, and this is me being cynical, when you design a system like that, it's a lot harder to print a zillion supplements chock full of prestige classes... or "advanced" classes as d20 Modern calls them, so that people can get the pregenerated options that WotC could have enabled people to create on their own.

Good. I like being able to buy stuff I don't have the time to create on my own.

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

I mean come on, what makes a Strong hero better at combat? His Strength? Great, thats taken care of by the Strength modifier. Does that mean a Smart hero is less effective at combat?

This is why there are no penalties AT ALL for multiclassing. You can splash a level of smart hero in with a few levels of strong, or whatever you want. Most character concepts are going to require a mixture of classes.

Read the reviews, read the positive and negative opinions, read the SRD... then spend your money.

I can agree with that, but most importantly, I would say; Don't make your final decision until you've held the actual book in your hands and looked through it. Even if you're going to order it online you can still find a copy at a local store and look through it, it's not like they keep them in a vault (that's where I put my books when I get them home )

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Nowhere in the book does it say that you must take the basic class that corresponds to your highest attribute.

A very good point indeed! One person may take a level in tough hero precisely because they have a low CON score.
A not so bright guy who loves to read books and fiddle with computers could be a Smart hero with a lackluster INT.

And, as I stated above, most of the really good character concepts are going to be a mixture of classes, not just one class all the way through. That's precisely why there are no penalties for multiclassing. I could have a hero with one level in each class if I wanted to, penaly free.

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I will admit that some of the class skill selections irk me. Why one type of hero is more likely to be able to use Handle Animal than another is beyond me. But, that sort of thing is easily Rule Zeroed.

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That's a matter of opinion not fact, the facts are some people think its great other people find it terribly disappointing, and some like myself fall somewhere in the middle.

Yes, but those would be opinions too, wouldn't they?

I happen think if the chap is considering spending his hard earned cash, he should be provided with a balanced view of the product.

That would be nice. But we're on a message board. Want facts, read a review. Let's face it though, even the most even-handed reviews are tinged with the opinions of the reviewer. If this wasn't true then reviews would read like the table of contents of whatever was being reviewed. Those are all the facts right there.
A reviewer will like or dislike a product based on his/her own tastes. Beyond pointing out blatant errors, a reviewer can only say why he/she dis/liked the product. Which is, of course, an opinion.

The facts as they pertain to myself. I like D20 Modern. I was planning on buying a copy for my friend for Christmas. However, I ended up giving him my copy because he was so excited about running a campaign that I was afraid he'd go out and get it for himself first. I'm having a hard time getting a new copy for myself around here because it is sold out everywhere.
Pretty impressive considering this isn't a very RPGer saturated area. Not that the number of people buying it should sway you, we're not sheep, but it's an interesting fact, and as we know, pure fact is hard to come by.
I gave the book to my friend on Tuesday and Thursday evening he came over and said he'd already made his brother roll up a character and had me roll one up as well, he's really excited about D20M.
Before this he was burnt out on gaming. Right now he's in college, has a time-consuming job, is student teaching, is doing an independent study, and is the lead singer of a small band.
That he is going to try and make time to run a campaign for this is rather astounding.

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Well I looked though it at borders, when I saw the class names a put it down and want NOTHING to do with it. C'mon, class names :strong, fast, smart, ect.

I don't mean to sound inflammatory, but this has to be the single most simple-minded, stupid reason not to buy an RPG (or anything) I have ever heard. No offense, but yeesh...

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To those saying that D20 Modern could have been a small add on for D&D; Not everyone plays D&D. Some of those people would like to play D20 Modern. Therefore, it makes more sense to make it a whole new book. Just like Wheel of Time. Just like Star Wars.
It's strange, some D&D players seem to go from thinking the world is against them to thinking it should revolve around them in the blink of an eye.

FYI: It was stated a while back that the page-count of the book had to be increased substantially, but that the cost would remain the same. Just pretend that whatever it is that you didn't want was in those freebie pages.

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Personally, I can't decide what kind of campaign I want to run. Plain modern, near past, near past with sci-fi and occult, near future with cyber elements... A generic setting really frees up the imagination to let you go wherever you want. The book is supposed to be a set of tools, not necessarily the tools and inspiration rolled into one (thankfully for me it was both). Inspiration is everywhere.

Way too long...

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

At the risk of hijacking the thread.

Originally posted by Synicism

I shall stomp upon all who oppose me.
The stomping shall be swift.
The stomping shall be painful.
And I shall show no mercy in all of my stomping.
Amen.

Kick you once.
Kick you twice.
Next time I won't be so nice.

Hehe. Lunch Money rocks.
There aren't many ways you can have that much fun for 20 bucks.

Come to think of it though, D20 Modern is the same price as two Lunch Money decks, only it's a lot more versatile. I'm as guilty as the other people who sometimes think of D&D as an expensive hobby, but when you really think about it, it's not that bad.
I'd mention the price of movie tickets, but around here I can see a movie the day it comes out for about three bucks. But I understand it's rather pricey some places. Some not too far from here.

I may have to convert Lunch Money to D20 Modern now. Still that should take all of two minutes, even for me.

 

[Bagpuss]

Yes, but those would be opinions too, wouldn't they?

Indeed which was my point. Its a fact that people have different opinions. Much better to hear a range of them before you make your decision.

I'm personally in the middle ground with D20 Modern. Its not great, but it isn't a load of rubbish either. Depending on what your looking for it could be great for you or a load of rubbish for you, for that particular style of play.

I don't feel I wasted my money, but I wouldn't recommend the game to everyone.

 

[Hollywood]

Nothing is stopping you from making d20M a one class game. It wouldn't be that hard to do.

Once again, creating house rules to "fix" the game system.

Having one class that is customizable to fit any character type is the same as having no character classes at all.

I like the idea of "Prestige" somethings. Classes would work ok, even with one basic class. However, I think having advanced Talent Trees that could be picked up would be a good way to go and that way you essentially need only one class, maybe an advanced class too.

You have obviously concluded, without ever playing the game, that d20M is a bad system.

I'm sorry Mistwell, but the rules are not that divergent from D&D that it requires playing the game to see flaws in the rules or to determine that the rulesset isn't enough to make you want to play the game. Being fairly generic with no real specific campaign, it makes it even more important that the mechanics of the game work for you. Game such as DUD, Spycraft or Mutants and Masterminds have a specific theme and overall setting that you can overlook rules problems because you like the game settings.

I have generally the same problem with GURPs. But on the otherhand, there is CLassic BattleTech and I've always loved it and its general theme/setting.. so while I'm not keen on all the rules, I play because I like it. However, won't play any of the d20 mecha stuff simple because its d20 and I believe its a bad system to be used anywhere outside of D&D [and heck, sometimes even within D&D... :/].

Go the OGL route like M&M, Spycraft and Everquest did and you can produce a decent game and mechanics that has enough fimiliarity to d20 that most people can "get it" in a fairly short time.

Most character concepts are going to require a mixture of classes.

Yes, thats the point. Because they are a mixture, there does NOT need to be the assortment of basic classes that don't make a lot of sense. There could have simply been one basic class and then some advanced classes. Wouldn't have been that hard, would have saved paper, and would be more streamlined. Then you wouldn't have problems with class skills in odd classes, you wouldn't have whacked out skill point differences, etc.

Want facts, read a review.

No, reviews are opinions not facts. Just like a messageboard!

I don't mean to sound inflammatory, but this has to be the single most simple-minded, stupid reason not to buy an RPG (or anything) I have ever heard. No offense, but yeesh...

Well, the class names are rather lame. They at least could have come up with more creative names to represent the archetypes they were aiming for. However, since the classes are so simplistic the names do suit them and being what they are, its one reason I won't buy the game. Not to mention, generally the same reason I don't buy most other d20 material... OGL'd material based off the SRD at least gets considered.

 

[Voneth]

For me it was all a matter of bad timing.
If I was just getting into DND, I’d get d20 Modern instead. There are some nice rule changes, but there were a few things that barely tipped things the other way and most of them were personal gaming taste.

• 1.) The need to get a campaign book to get my supernatural powers, AdCs and PrCs, interspersed with a campaign world that I may or may not want.
  
  2.) I was one of those fans that wanted DR armor and VP. : )
  
  3.) Psionics rules gets a back seat in a modern game. If it wasn’t WotC’s D20 modern, I’d think a similar product from another company would tank on this concept, but WotC can’t ignore that it’s customer base if very fantasy (compared to SF) orientated.
  On the other hand, the way the two systems work, leaves psionics barely touched. Magic needs only one attribute to access your whole spell list at your best. Psionics needs all the attributes. This makes d20 Modern’s basic support of 2 classes for each system sort of lopsided. And did you notice that magic got almost 130 powers when psionics got 55? Then when I heard that psionics wasn’t getting any real boost in power level WITHIN ITS OWN CAMPAIGN WORLD, I knew I wasn’t the audience WotC was aiming for.

At this point in my gaming, I am looking for things that do more radical stuff with the d20 system and I have found some that do the trick. (I’ll spare you the pimping of my own personal favorites. ).

 

[Trainz]

Well, I'm sorry d20M is not what many of you wanted. It is no fault of WOTC however. It fell exactly where I wanted it to fall, and that makes one little Trainz quite happy.

It is quite impossible to make a RPgame exactly what most people want. If you want that you have to cut down the rules. The more rules, the more people wont have it exactly as they expected. Less rules, and it will be closer to the masses expectations.

In fact, I beleive that to make it 100% popular, you'd end up with a piece of paper saying:"To succeed at things in d20M, roll a d20. Create the rest of the rules as suits your campaign". And even then, you'd end up with people saying :"ach... I hate d 20's, I wiched they'd used d 6's...".

I think that the 6 core classes are one of the smartest moves WOTC have made for d20M. They allow you to create absolutely any character concept.

The only rule that irks me is brawl. I will house rule it. Very easy, simply fixed, move on.

 

[Synicism]

Originally posted by Mistwell I think your handle says it all. Really, there is nothing I could say at this point about d20M that would result in a positive response from you. You have obviously concluded, without ever playing the game, that d20M is a bad system. Fair enough.

I didn't say it was a bad system. That wasn't the question I answered. What I did say was that I don't think d20-Modern is worth the price of the book.