D20 'philosophy' cramping my style

[Elder-Basilisk]

No, which is why we would EXPECT the writer of such a character to spend skill points on knowledge nobility IF THE VISION OF THE CHARACTER SAYS " he would know these things." To get to a 15 result off a take 10 a 10th level fighter would need (assuming no INT bonus) to have spent 10 skill ranks to get +5. Thats very doable. of course, 1oth level is not high, so we are really talking 15.

The onus is on the writer to build the characters to do what he is wrting them to be able to do.

Exactly. If an author is creating an NPC, there are plenty of ways to give them the abilities you want them to have. They may not all automatically fit with your preconceived ideas of the NPC--for instance, the "knight" in question might actually be better served by a multiclass Aristocrat/Fighter, a Fighter/Rogue, a Fighter/Bard, a Paladin, a Fighter/Expert, or a straight classed Aristocrat than a single-classed fighter--however, an author will be able to simulate the NPC's abilities.

Heck, the Aristocrat class EXISTS to simulate nobles who are skilled combatants (though not as skilled as a full-time mercenary fighter or barbarian who does nothing but fight) and who also have the skills necessary to succeed in the intrigues of court. That's what it's in the DMG for. If you need more combat power, it multiclasses with fighter very well (An Ari 4/Ftr 8 makes a very convincing scheming noble who is also an exceptional combatant in his own right). If it doesn't have enough skill points for you, Expert works just fine too. And if the noble is sneaky and dishonorable, Rogue is the way to go. If he's charming and seductive, try multiclassing a fighter/bard.

or would you prefer he just write up the fighter, spend all his skills on the combat stuff, arr arr arr mo' power, and then go "gosh darn, he needs to be able to answer nobility questions too, letds add the "noble template" to represent all the time he spent doing courtly stuff"?

This kind of suggestion (not intended seriously, of course), highlights exactly why I objected to the suggestion of applying a template to give the imp more bluff skill. When treated like that, templates simply become a way of ignoring the rules rather than using them.

I would be completely unsympathetic to a PC rogue, who after spending all his skill points on tumble, escape artist, just enough jump to get a synergy on tumble, etc and spent his feats on TWF and then turned around and complained "I don't have any ranks in bluff and my character concept is a smooth-talking face man." Well if you want to play a smooth-talking face man, take some of those points out of tumble and put them into bluff and take some of the points out of dexterity and put them into charisma. A smooth-talking face man doesn't need tumble and he doesn't have to be the quickest sword in the kingdom. But he does need ranks of bluff and a charisma higher than 8. The hypothetical fighter complaint seems to be the DM version of that.

If your NPC is a cultured and refined warrior, aristocrat levels won't hurt him. If he's supposed to be a boorish man who lives only for combat and killing, then single classed fighter with no social skills is the way to go. (There is a tendency in fantasy literature that the most personally skilled combatants among the nobles tend to be somewhat crude and uncultured, so either way won't be without precedent). If you find those classes too limiting, then create or adapt a PC power level "Noble" or "Knight" class. (See the Wheel of Time RPG for an example of the former and Hong's D&D page for an example of the latter).

 

[kingpaul]

PCgen which I use but find way to clunky and inflexible.

I've heard the clunky complaint before. But how do you find it inflexible?

 

[barsoomcore]

I think making a reform argument is a little too difficult and invokes too much hostility, even with a nice title.

I hope you don't think I'm being hostile. I'm trying very hard to be dismissive. Completely different. If I were hostile it would imply I took your arguments seriously.

If you want to suggest reforms to d20, have at it. There's lots of reforms getting suggested that I LOVE and support -- but they're all backed by actual knowledge of the rules.

See Badaxe Games' Grim Tales for an example -- it's a complete revision of lots of d20 rules, and it ROCKS. Hard. On toast. Or check Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds. Frickin' brilliant. And I HATE superhero games. But that one's sitting on my shelf.

There's lots of people out there revamping d20 even as we speak. I'm not hostile to any of them.

There's lots of people who say, "d20's not for me. I prefer HERO." One of them plays in my Barsoom game. No hostility there.

It's not that I'm offended by your point of view, Drifter Bob. You're just demonstratably, painfully WRONG. You've got no evidence and you keep exposing how little you know about the rules you're complaining about. You are wrong to suggest that your inability to learn the basic rules points out some terrible direction in the market trends of RPGs. You are wrong to suggest that your ignorance of the rules means that the rules are too complicated or restrictive. You are wrong to suggest that your thin-skinned inability to accept criticism is an indicator of market trends of RPGs.

Anyway, I think I've made my point, I guess I keep getting sucked back into the discussion as people keep making this or that assertion that I don't know the rules or whatever.

Your first post demonstrated a lack of basic rules knowledge. If you don't want people to make the assertion that you don't know the rules, I guess you should stop posting threads that demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the rules.

That's what I do. Works pretty well, I find.

I guess I wouldn't mind if the thread were ended.

Yeah, I guess you wouldn't.

Look, DB, obviously you're very thin-skinned and you take people disagreeing with you very personally, so presumably you're going to think I'm all hostile and out to get you and "love it or leave it!" and all that nonsense.

Nobody would be happier than I if you presented a better way to do things. Or even if you pointed out a real, significant issue with d20 rules that nobody had noticed before.

Okay, some people would be happier than me. But I'd still be up in the top ranks of "people made happy."

So go for it. Take a stand. What's wrong with d20, Drifter Bob? That hasn't been already pointed out (because we all know that "What's wrong with d20" is a question with a million good answers), please.

But if you're going to make assertions that you have no evidence to support, I'm going to call you on it. If you're going to demonstrate a lack of rules knowledge, don't expect me to take your ideas on the rules very seriously. That's the way debate works, I'm afraid.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm lookin' forward to that "ways to handle things within the rules" thread, db.

 

[Drifter Bob]

So go for it. Take a stand. What's wrong with d20, Drifter Bob?

Ok, here we go:

People like you.

DB

 

[billd91]

Ok, here we go:

People like you.

DB

Dude, you just aren't winning any friends for yourself with ad hominem attacks.

 

[I'm A Banana]

People like Barsoom exist in all games, in all walks of life. He's not a d20-specific phenomena.

But with the creativity I've seen in Barsoomcore, he's definately *not* limited by the rules.

 

[barsoomcore]

People like Barsoom exist in all games, in all walks of life.

Hey, wait a minute...

People like ME? As if. I'm one-of-a-kind, baby.

 

[eyebeams]

This proves, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that you have NEVER read the rules. Consult Rule Zero.

The fact that many people hate rule zero or don't consider it to be a real rule is rather part of the point.

 

[eyebeams]

You have failed to demonstrate (or indeed offer any evidence at all or otherwise convince anyone) that it's a problem. It's not a problem.

Your example only proves that you don't know the rules very well. It is not a valid example of the problem you have failed to convince anyone exists.

You don't make sense because you insist that a thread called "d20 philosophy cramping my style" wasn't started in order to complain about d20.

Seems pretty simple to me. DrifterBob wants to add a few ranks of Bluff to an Imp. He didn't come into this thread wanting to add a Rogue level or wanting to redistribute skill points or anything like that. He wanted to add some ranks of Bluff to an Imp.

The responses so far have either been insults or workarounds. For those of you have have never doen tech support, a workaround is not a solution. A workaround is a way off keeping something working without getting exactly what you want.

DB's complaint is that he can't get exactly what he wants and appeal to folks who care about nonstandard stat blocks for monsters. He's right about that.

(This is ignoring Rule Zero. Nobody ever treats Rule Zero like it's a real rule and few D20-heads would ever use Rule Zero as an actual design element.)

Now, the real question is whether this problem is a systemic problem. I don't think it really is. When you get into a system, you take its limitations as a given unless you want to make fairly fundamental changes. The fact that those changes are possible isn't really a valid for or against argument about the system. I can fool with D20 however I want, but that doesn't say anything good or bad about the system's virtues so much as the quality of my design.

If there's anything to be said about D20 itself here, it's this: Someone should insert a single sentence in a WotC book/SRD entry about how you may change standard skill allotments for monsters if you wish. That's it. In fact, here you go:

ADDENDUM TO MONTER ENTRIES AND STAT BLOCKS

You may change standard a monster's skill allotments. Total all the skill ranks possessed by a monster that have not been granted by any class levels the monster may possess. You may spend these ranks on any skill you wish, but it may not exceed the maximum rank of any skill listed in the monster's standard skill selection. In addition you may add up to 4 extra skill points to a monster. 1 skill ranks costs 1 skill point. This does not apply to skill gained through class levels.

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