d20 Prime Directive

MoogleEmpMog said:
I'll probably buy d20 Klingons and d20 Romulans, if only to mine for other games. I doubt I'll buy d20 Prime Directive or d20 Federation, because I'm unlikely to run the game itself (although the military side of TOS Star Trek does appeal to me).

PD20 will have some rules that you may want to use for your games, it will be just as useful IMHO to mine for data as any of the other games you may have. I wouldnt pass it up just because the setting may not interest you.
 

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Ranger REG said:
Last time I checked, Decipher still have the license.

They do, and it doesnt appear that they are even interested in making a d20 version of Star Trek. Of course with PD20 you probably could extrapolate the later eras from the existing rules. While nothing official will ever be said, there probably isnt anything impossible for the enterprising person.
 

Converting PD20 to a full d20Modern game shouldn't be that difficult. Strip out the classes, drop in the D20M classes, tweak here and there, and you're off.

Also, for the person who asked why companies haven't tried this before (the multiple engines for a single setting): last year ADB purchased the equipment to do print-on-demand in-house. So now, instead of having to buy a few thousand copies of any given product and having a lot of money tied up in pallets of product waiting to sell, they now can print their initial shipment to dsitributors, with a few dozen to cover initial restocks and such, and then just print more copies as needed. Which means they can, instead of expending available budget on a print run of GPD, it is economically feasible to do so smaller runs of GPD, PD20, and PD6.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
Modules only drive the sale of books if you assume at least a significant minority of GMs use modules.
[snip]
To the best of my knowledge, the group I GM for collectively brings to the table:
[snip]
I'll probably buy d20 Klingons and d20 Romulans, if only to mine for other games. I doubt I'll buy d20 Prime Directive or d20 Federation, because I'm unlikely to run the game itself (although the military side of TOS Star Trek does appeal to me).


It has been my experience that a significant majority of DMs/GMs use modules. I use them exclusively, and the last time I played an RPG that wasn't a module was almost 15 years ago to the best of my recollection. Somebody ran Rifts--a game for which there were no modules. Even that GM continued that game using an old Omega World series of adventures.

Many of the books you mention are D&D books. I believe there is a big differrence between D&D & other d20 games, particularly those from 3rd party publishers. People will buy D&D books in much greater quantities than books for other d20 games. I have a gaming friend that bought many, many D&D books; but he will not buy books for any other d20 game. He and I are the only big consumers in our group. To use WotC's recently-revealed marketing strategy terms of Trial, Regular & Lifestyle: he and I fall somewhere between Regular & Lifestyle. We'll never be Lifestyle players because neither of us buy every product that is released by WotC for D&D--and even most other third party lines peter out (he gave up on Scarred Lands befiore it was canceled and has stopped buying Kalamar stuff, too). All of our other group members are Regular players since they have the basic rules (a PHB) and that's about it. On the other hand, I am a Lifestyle player of Judge Dredd d20. I buy everything I can for it. I do this because I like the core book and the modules. The sourcebooks are mostly just read & shelved, but I buy them because I'm captivated by the game and setting. I think this is where ADB wants to be with PD20. They want Lifestyle players. They want sales of as many books as they can print.

Which is what they will not get with your purchases of just the Klingons & Romulans sourcebooks. Do you think anyone else in your group will buy those books? Any of the PD20 books? Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's bad for them to sell two books or for you to buy 2 books. Certainly, not every game can appeal to every gamer. But, I'm telling them that they will sell me many books if they publish modules. You're telling them that they will sell only 2 books to you no matter if they publish modules or not. The wiser marketing strategy is to publish modules. Of course, ADB may just want to saturate the market with the first four PD20 books and then get out of the d20 publishing business. I might convert adventures from other sources for PD20, but it's often easier to just play the other game if I'm going to have to use material from it. If they want to attract Lifestyle PD20 players, they need publish adventure modules.

Anyway, these are my individual experiences, opinions & preferences. I do not believe that I am right or that you or anyone else is wrong. Different gamers have different styles of play and different tastes. I think this game will appeal to more players if it offers more. It needs to offer a core book, some sourcebooks and some modules. Not everything will sell to everyone. I'm just trying to influence this publisher at this very early stage of development of this game with my personal preferences. I'm tired of seeing new campaign settings/games/sourcebooks without modules. I stopped buying them. I hope there will be a market correction, but it is possible that I am in the minority and that the demand for settings/games/sourcebooks that are ussupported by adventures will continue. I hope not.
 

Regarding Decipher

BPIJonathan said:
They do, and it doesnt appear that they are even interested in making a d20 version of Star Trek. Of course with PD20 you probably could extrapolate the later eras from the existing rules. While nothing official will ever be said, there probably isnt anything impossible for the enterprising person.
As I recall (which may be wrong and RangerREG will correct me) Decipher had a chance to make a d20 version, but opted to hire the Last Unicorn Games folks and thereby maintaining the non-d20 rules pattern.
 

Decipher is one of the stupidest companies in the buisness. They can't even keep their RPG lines a float. Yet if they would simply use d20 instead of CODA they could actually sell enough to make it worth their while printing new material.
 

scourger said:
It has been my experience that a significant majority of DMs/GMs use modules.

Use, possibly. Willing to pay enough to make them worth printing, no. D&D has a big enough customer base that selling to a tiny fraction of that base can still make a decent-sized market, but pretty much no other game, d20 or not, has those kinds of numbers.
 

SWBaxter said:
Use, possibly. Willing to pay enough to make them worth printing, no. D&D has a big enough customer base that selling to a tiny fraction of that base can still make a decent-sized market, but pretty much no other game, d20 or not, has those kinds of numbers.

I agree that D&D has the economy of scale. But I don't think that a plan to make 4 PD20 sourcebooks and then possibly even more sourcebooks without modules will be successful. It doesn't appeal to me, and I don't know a gamer to whom it would appeal. What will sell to me is a PD20 core (source) book, modules and then sourcebooks; in that order. Without the modules, I don't get the sourcebooks, and I may not buy the first ("core") book. Again, adventure books may have to be printed and sold at less profit so that the publisher can sell the other books at more profit. Even free advenure downloads are good. I've purchased sourcebooks after downloading cool mini-adventures. It seems to work for WotC. There are dozens of free D&D and Star Wars adventures for download on their web site. If it is not profitable to print modules, then post them on the web. The costs must be less, and I feel sure it must drive sales of the print books. Call it a Web Enhancement or whatever to get the game played.
 

BPIJonathan said:
They do, and it doesnt appear that they are even interested in making a d20 version of Star Trek.
Yeah, they're going to stick with a "not-really-d20" system, CODA. That is, assuming they get around to printing and distributing the unpublished material that have been left behind by the former RPG Studio folks.


BPIJonathan said:
Of course with PD20 you probably could extrapolate the later eras from the existing rules. While nothing official will ever be said, there probably isnt anything impossible for the enterprising person.
If anything, I'll probably look at PD20 as a toolkit. Of course, other gamer would prefer the core game product to be "ready-2-run."
 

scourger said:
It has been my experience that a significant majority of DMs/GMs use modules. I use them exclusively, and the last time I played an RPG that wasn't a module was almost 15 years ago to the best of my recollection. Somebody ran Rifts--a game for which there were no modules. Even that GM continued that game using an old Omega World series of adventures.

Many of the books you mention are D&D books. I believe there is a big differrence between D&D & other d20 games, particularly those from 3rd party publishers. People will buy D&D books in much greater quantities than books for other d20 games. I have a gaming friend that bought many, many D&D books; but he will not buy books for any other d20 game. He and I are the only big consumers in our group. To use WotC's recently-revealed marketing strategy terms of Trial, Regular & Lifestyle: he and I fall somewhere between Regular & Lifestyle. We'll never be Lifestyle players because neither of us buy every product that is released by WotC for D&D--and even most other third party lines peter out (he gave up on Scarred Lands befiore it was canceled and has stopped buying Kalamar stuff, too). All of our other group members are Regular players since they have the basic rules (a PHB) and that's about it. On the other hand, I am a Lifestyle player of Judge Dredd d20. I buy everything I can for it. I do this because I like the core book and the modules. The sourcebooks are mostly just read & shelved, but I buy them because I'm captivated by the game and setting. I think this is where ADB wants to be with PD20. They want Lifestyle players. They want sales of as many books as they can print.

Which is what they will not get with your purchases of just the Klingons & Romulans sourcebooks. Do you think anyone else in your group will buy those books? Any of the PD20 books? Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's bad for them to sell two books or for you to buy 2 books. Certainly, not every game can appeal to every gamer. But, I'm telling them that they will sell me many books if they publish modules. You're telling them that they will sell only 2 books to you no matter if they publish modules or not. The wiser marketing strategy is to publish modules. Of course, ADB may just want to saturate the market with the first four PD20 books and then get out of the d20 publishing business. I might convert adventures from other sources for PD20, but it's often easier to just play the other game if I'm going to have to use material from it. If they want to attract Lifestyle PD20 players, they need publish adventure modules.

Anyway, these are my individual experiences, opinions & preferences. I do not believe that I am right or that you or anyone else is wrong. Different gamers have different styles of play and different tastes. I think this game will appeal to more players if it offers more. It needs to offer a core book, some sourcebooks and some modules. Not everything will sell to everyone. I'm just trying to influence this publisher at this very early stage of development of this game with my personal preferences. I'm tired of seeing new campaign settings/games/sourcebooks without modules. I stopped buying them. I hope there will be a market correction, but it is possible that I am in the minority and that the demand for settings/games/sourcebooks that are ussupported by adventures will continue. I hope not.

The market problems with modules are essentially fourfold:

1) Modules sell only to GMs, never players. At least five people in my current (ten-player) group GM at least some of the time, so this isn't a problem for us.
2) Modules don't sell to all GMs. Neither do sourcebooks, either, of course. But only one out of five GMs I know uses modules regularly. All use sourcebooks, and all but one own and use non-D&D sourcebooks.
3) Modules are often the most difficult products to adapt, and have an uncomfortable relationship with sourcebooks.
4) Modules, once used, become essentially dead to a particular group.

1. One of my (player-only) players bought OGL Steampunk for a single class, even though I own the book and let him use it and he'll probably never play in a full-on Steampunk game. He may never GM. Another player bought Complete Adventurer for the same reason and under the same circumstances. A third is likely to buy Arcana Evolved. Both the players and player/GMs in my group buy sourcebooks; at most, the player/GMs would buy modules.

2. I've cribbed rules from every single book I listed for a single campaign. I've used the Steampunk, Conan, Modern and AU books in every single session, and the PHB in all but one.

3. A module designed for core D&D is the only product to which the EL system and the wealth-by-level guidelines matter absolutely. D&D has a large enough following to make it almost worthwhile. d20 Modern, or even a very successful line like Conan the RPG, doesn't. I can't run a D&D module in Conan without a lot of work, nor a Conan module in Modern, nor, certainly, a Prime Directive module in Diamond Throne/Arcana Unearthed.

4. After about three months, any module short of the ($100) World's Largest Dungeon would probably be done and over with. Not only would I never use it again in the campaign, I probably wouldn't use it again in another campaign, and none of my player/GMs would use it in their campaigns with this group. The only way it will ever be useful to me, personally, is if I happen to GM it for another group. On the other hand, knowing the module automatically reduces my enjoyment of it (and to a lesser extent, my players') should another group run it.
 

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