D20 product coming out for CR and ECL?

[Kaelynna]

Hello,

Does anyone know if/when a D20 product is coming out that will explain how to figure out and assign CR and ECL for creatures and non-standard races? Some of the posters here (such as Upper_Krust) seems to have this down (nice article in Asgard BTW).

I guess I'm curious if there is an actual method to the madness for WoTC official CR and ECL ratings.

Thanks!
- Kae.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kaelynna!

Hello,

Does anyone know if/when a D20 product is coming out that will explain how to figure out and assign CR and ECL for creatures and non-standard races? Some of the posters here (such as Upper_Krust) seems to have this down (nice article in Asgard BTW).

I guess I'm curious if there is an actual method to the madness for WoTC official CR and ECL ratings.

There were a few tiny flaws in the article in question though it works well for anything in the Monster Manual.

However, I have a revised and (hopefully) perfected method which also works better with the Epic Rules (the previous article was published before the Epic Level Handbook was released).

I plan to include this final work in the Immortals Handbook though I will probably post it on the boards too once I type it up and can just copy and paste.

 

[Kaelynna]

Re: Re: D20 product coming out for CR and ECL?

Hi Kaelynna!



There were a few tiny flaws in the article in question though it works well for anything in the Monster Manual.

However, I have a revised and (hopefully) perfected method which also works better with the Epic Rules (the previous article was published before the Epic Level Handbook was released).

I plan to include this final work in the Immortals Handbook though I will probably post it on the boards too once I type it up and can just copy and paste.

Cool! I'll definitely look for your handbook when you get it published!

Out of curiousity, when you looked over the leShay race, did you feel that their CR of 28 and ECL 32 were accurate? It's clear as mud to me how WoTC came up with their ratings. Why is ECL +4 higher than their CR. Hopefully, after you release your book, I'll be able break down how they assigned these values.

Thanks again!
- Kae.

 

[Kaelynna]

Re: Re: D20 product coming out for CR and ECL?

Hi Kaelynna!



There were a few tiny flaws in the article in question though it works well for anything in the Monster Manual.

However, I have a revised and (hopefully) perfected method which also works better with the Epic Rules (the previous article was published before the Epic Level Handbook was released).

I plan to include this final work in the Immortals Handbook though I will probably post it on the boards too once I type it up and can just copy and paste.

Oh and one more question RE: to the leShay again. It appears that they have damage reduction of 30/+7 and SR of 42. Do these abilities scale and top out at these levels or are they always just these values? I was just curious if your book will cover this type of things.

Thanks!
- Kae.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kaelynna mate!

Cool! I'll definitely look for your handbook when you get it published!

Hey thanks!

Out of curiousity, when you looked over the leShay race, did you feel that their CR of 28 and ECL 32 were accurate? It's clear as mud to me how WoTC came up with their ratings. Why is ECL +4 higher than their CR. Hopefully, after you release your book, I'll be able break down how they assigned these values.

Well there are a number of incogruities between ECL and CR that I am not happy with.

eg. How is a 20th-level character CR20 and +20 Levels ECL+20. Yet a White Slaad is CR21 and ECL+23. You can't logically have one and not the other.

So either a 20th-level character is not CR20 or ECL and CR should be the same.

The standard tenet is that 4 characters of CR 'x' are equal to one character of CR 'x+4'

eg. A single 8th-level character is equal to x4 4th-level characters.

Though I believe that should be a difference of six levels.

ie. CR is +3 every time you double the number of opponents.
So x4 4th-level characters would be equal to a single 10th-level character. Or x4 14th-level characters are equal to a single 20th-level character, or x8 11th-level characters. etc.

Anyway I digress.

To answer the question about the LeShay: to me they look like ECL 42 which equals CR30. So they are a 50/50 encounter for a party of x4 28th-level characters.

ie. An equal encounter for a party of four will be -6 CR (CR24 in this case) and CR24 = ECL 28 (28th-level).

Of course with epic encounters there is always the greater chance of one hit kills deciding the outcome. But that generally works both ways.

Oh and one more question RE: to the leShay again. It appears that they have damage reduction of 30/+7 and SR of 42. Do these abilities scale and top out at these levels or are they always just these values? I was just curious if your book will cover this type of things.

You can always increase them as you see fit and use my system to modify the CR/ECL.

As with a few other things: Ability Scores; Fast Healing; Regeneration etc.

 

[Numion]

Re: Re: D20 product coming out for CR and ECL?

Well there are a number of incogruities between ECL and CR that I am not happy with.

eg. How is a 20th-level character CR20 and +20 Levels ECL+20. Yet a White Slaad is CR21 and ECL+23. You can't logically have one and not the other.

Why not? Some abilities affect the CR differently than ECL. WotC people reasoned that the Trolls regenerative ability is more useful to an adventurer, than the poor troll who uses it for just the battle in which it's defeated. Hence, troll CR != troll ECL.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Numion!

Why not? Some abilities affect the CR differently than ECL. WotC people reasoned that the Trolls regenerative ability is more useful to an adventurer, than the poor troll who uses it for just the battle in which it's defeated. Hence, troll CR != troll ECL.

I remember reading such explanations and the point is certainly a valid one.

But to me ECL shouldn't be modified/increased because of the power of some abilities, but rather its CR that should be modified/decreased (if at all).

ECL should be the constant. CR should be the flexible element.

 

[jmucchiello]

Technically, ECL is not in the SRD and any works using it are in that haze between the safe harbor of the SRD and normal copyright protection. I realize lots of publishers include ECL information on their new races but I do not think that is strictly compliant with the Open Gaming License.

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games
http://www.throwingdice.com

 

[Grazzt]

I guess I'm curious if there is an actual method to the madness for WoTC official CR and ECL ratings.

Thanks!
- Kae.

Here is WotC's formula for CRs as detailed in Dragon 276.

1- Take the monster's avg HP and divide by 4.5

2- To this add +1 or +2 for each SA or SQ the monster has.

3- Divide this total by 3. This gives the monster's CR.

 

[Kaelynna]

Re: Re: D20 product coming out for CR and ECL?

One more question. You've been extremely helpful!

Say 5/+1 damage reduction equals +1 level adjustment. Does this mean that 30/+7 damage reduction would equal +7 level adjustment?

I guess I'm wondering how this stuff scales on the low end as well. Does the leShay always have 42 SR or did it scale up to that amount (i.e., 14 + CR = 42; 14 + 28 = 42)?

The way the ELH handles it playing the leShay as a nonstandard race PC or NPC is to take the monster already in there, look up it's ECL, then go from there. e.g., ECL for leShay = 32. Level 1 sorcerer leShay is treated as a level 33 character.

Basically, I would like to scale down all its abilities by removing all its hit dice, feats, and skills, etc. scale the damage reduction, spell resistance, etc. and start the race that way. In that case, it's ECL wouldn't be 32 anymore.

Ah well. I'm babbling now. I'll be patient and wait for your book Upper_Krust.

Thanks for everything everyone!

- Kae.