d20 Races: Balance

[pawsplay]

What about penalties to Dexterity and/or Intelligence?

They're not supposed to be dumb or clumsy. That's such a stereotype. They're supposed to be overwhelmingly strong, but not invincible in melee. They're capable, if somewhat luddite, craftsmen, so an Int penalty is out.

I don't like the Large size kicking in late, because it means a small subset of the population is vastly more powerful in melee and can carry twice as much.

What if I started them dirt poor? That would seem to cancel out some of their advantages as 1st level tanks. Maybe 2d4x10 gp, regardless of class, like Druids. Since their armor costs double, that should put them on more even ground.

As Druids, one of their better abilities, wildshape, is less a boon to them than other characters, since they already have good physical stats. As Rogues, their size works against them. They would be terrible Bards or Sorcerers because of their Cha penalty. They have a slight advantage as Wizards. Mainly, I am concerned about them being super-tanks. They should be the best choice for a certain kind of warrior, but they shouldn't be the only one.

At higher levels, lightning bolts, rapid archery, and Mobility should take care of reach, I'm thinking.

Perhaps they could also be automatically illiterate, like Barbarians.

 

[jmucchiello]

This really belongs in house rules.

Reach is not offset by other character traits until around 10th level or so. Before that Reach is worth a +1 LA (or more) on its own. Str +4 is also worth a +1 LA on its own. These things hit 10% more often than normal humans and they average 3 more points of damage per hit (+2 for strength, +1 for larger weapon). Being poor at first level is nothing compared to those two facts.

Even a severe Cha modifier (-6 or so) would not offset +4 Str and +2 Con in any significant way. You say they aren't supposed to be dumb or clumsy but you did reduce their speed.

I don't like Druid as favored class. You imply they are great crafters and builders. Druids wouldn't be blacksmiths but burly strong types make great smiths. It seems like you chose it because you didn't like the logical alternatives (Ranger, Barbarian, Fighter, Expert).

Now, OTOH, just because they are Large bipeds does not mean that you can't say, these creatures do not have reach. Maybe the stoop a lot and can take Reach as a feat with a +4 BAB prereq. Also you want them to be strong, why not give them the load capacity of a quadriped and only a +2 Str bonus? This makes them more like pack animals than fighters. And it gives the illusion of great strength. (And is another reason they stoop. ) Perhaps they are even prone to running on four limbs and so cannot run at x4 if they are holding anything.

+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha
20 foot base move
Large (5 ft reach, 10 ft space, -1 AC, -1 to hit, -4 on hide checks)
Stooped (Carrying capacity is as if they were Large quadripeds)
Plodding (Cannot run at x4 base move unless running on all fours. Cannot be holding anything in hand when using arms for running.)
Stable (+4 bonus to Str checks to avoid overrun/bull rush/etc)
Crafty (+1 bonus to any one Craft skill)
No favored class

That is close to a zero LA.

 

[Li Shenron]

Right now, these things are +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha, Large, slow (20 ft movement), +2 natural armor, and take a penalty on Jump. Their favored class is Druid. They have problems finding equipment In the few civilized areas they live, they're considered a slave race, but mostly, they are known for being savages.
...
They're supposed to be remnants of a race created through magic to serve as drudge labor.

As it is now, I think the net +4 deserves a +1 LA. Making them Illiterate no matter the class could be a nice flavor addition, but it costs only 2sp to offset this.

To lower the LA to +0, you can consider the idea of lowering some scores more. I read that you don't like it, but you may look for an explanation why this race was enslaved even if they are so big and strong. Perhaps they have a terrible (-4) charisma. Or maybe they have an ancestral curse than makes them more vulnerable to magic (-2 to every ST vs spells and spell-like abilities).

On the other hand, if the race is used with a combat class, it definitely deserves the +1 LA. Compared for example to an Orc, this race has +2 Con, Wis and Int plus reach. If the race is used with a spellcasting class, you may instead ignore LA altogether, since the Str bonus may go almost unnoticed.

 

[pawsplay]

I don't like Druid as favored class. You imply they are great crafters and builders. Druids wouldn't be blacksmiths but burly strong types make great smiths. It seems like you chose it because you didn't like the logical alternatives (Ranger, Barbarian, Fighter, Expert).

Well, they're my race. Their elite warriors are mostly Barbarians, some Rangers, but they are not a warrior race. When you consider that they make most things out of stone or wood, with some small-scale iron and bronze works, they'd have to be petty good craftsmen, wouldn't they? Far more than humans, they value harmony with the natural world over power or comfort. They're semi-nomadic, ruled by druids and accomplished scouts.

I abbreviated the stat block before, which I shouldn't have, here's the whole thing as it currently stands:

+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha
Large size
Speed 20 feet
+2 save vs. Transmutation
-2 save vs. Enchantment
natural armor +2
natural horn attack (1d6)
-4 Jump
favored class: druid

So there is that save penalty thing, an intentional design feature instilled by their masters. The whole +1 LA for fighters, +0 LA for casters thing was something I was specifically trying to avoid.

If the above creature appeared in a d20 book, not a plug-in type product, but a full-fleshed setting, as above, with no LA, would it bother you? As a player? As a GM?

 

[pawsplay]

Now, OTOH, just because they are Large bipeds does not mean that you can't say, these creatures do not have reach.

There is that. Actually, I've been having fits because these things average right at the cusp of Medium/Large, 8 feet tall and 600 pounds. Maybe I'll just make them Medium, big Medium, mind you, but Medium, and allow them to carry loads as though Large. They have pretty long arms, but nothing like an Ogre.

 

[pawsplay]

Btw, thanks for all the input. I'm not used to nerfing my own designs.

 

[stevelabny]

+4 Str which is a +2 to hit, +2 to damage (+3 two-handed)
+2 Con which is 1/hp per level

- 2 Cha which is a MUCH weaker negative (it just means they wont be sorcerors or bards and wont be the "face" of the party)

Large size -1 to hit, - 1 to AC but REACH and double carrying capacity and weapons that do MORE damage (as if the +3 from STR wasnt bad enough)

a natural attack.

AND +2 Natural Armor

-4 to jump. As if they would EVER bother.
20 ft. Slow? ok, but if they wear armor, theyll only lose another 5 ft.

Forget a +1 LA, you might want a +2. There is no way to introduce this race into your game as playable without having a lot of insane PC tanks.

If the PC rolls an 18, and put it in STR...
1st level fighter gets two feats. 1> COMBAT REFLEXES and 2> Weapon focus: greatsword. (although if you make them poor, this would have to wait until...level two)

his attack looks like this +7 2d8+9. OUCH.
Then give me a +1 or +2 Dex mod so that I get 2 or 3 AOOs vs the little people who run up to attack me.

And this is at 1st level before Cleave and before Stat-boosting spells and items that will just make things WORSE.

As a DM you've lost all ability to use melee-combatants as enemies. This thing can only be targeted by spells,ranged weapons and BBEGs. A smart PC would then look into protection against these things.

Now if you want to force the race to be pacifists you have at least narrowed the problem down to players begging to play the Drizzt of this race. The one who is different and taken up the art of war.

Ditch the large size. Lower the STR boost to +2. Lower the Natural Armor to +1. Double their carrying capacity. Or leave them as is for NPCs only or PCs with all sorts of game-mood breaking restrictions.