d20 Star Wars Saga Edition news from Gen Con?

[Vigilance]

I think some kind of Action Points that let you avoid hits might be the best way to model the genre. The heroes dive for cover and avoid fights (from a meta-game perspective) because they have limited APs. But when they have to take the risk, they can do so pretty boldly because they still have som APs socked away. When they run out of APs they start working on their actual "health" (whether you call it Wound Points, Damage Condition or simply a fairly small number of HPs). So when Daddy slices off your hand at the end of the adventure, you're in BAD shape, even though you were mowing through hordes of mooks earlier.

Sounds like True 20 to me lol.

Which would, I think, be a pretty good system for Star Wars, just as I think D&D style HP are a pretty good fit for SW, because they also model this exact feel the movies have.

Characters get worn down by preliminary encounters, until the final scene, where their characters might die.

Sounds like HP to me.

Or True 20 characters running out of Conviction

Chuck

 

[Psion]

You have vitality, which repesents you doding and getting with with near misses, and then Wound Points, which repesent your physical body, an ACTUAL hit. In other words, Vitality Points work just like HP, but add a "winner take all" system where one good blow can kill at any time.

That sounds more like MDT. A crit might not blow through your wound points. Failing and MDT save will leave you dying.

Since a natural 20 is also a crit, that means you're probably going to go down and start dying from one of those lucky mook hits.

A natural 20 is not a crit. It's a threat. The mooks then have to confirm the threat.

 

[Vigilance]

A natural 20 is not a crit. It's a threat. The mooks then have to confirm the threat.

But it is still an automatic hit either way right?

I think my point is still valid.

When I ran SW using VP/WP, I could not run it like the movies, with the PCs dodging a hail of blaster fire from hordes of mooks. It resulted in mooks taking out the PCs as often as BBEG.

You seem to continue to misunderstand me.

Im not saying WP is better than MDT (at least not a low MDT like 10 or Con).

Im saying BOTH SYSTEMS are bad fits for SW imo.

You need something more cinematic, not less.

Chuck

 

[Shalimar]

I think everyone needs to agree to disagree. It just seems like proponets of whatever system are trying to drown out people by dropping the signal to noise ratio.

 

[Ilium]

Sounds like True 20 to me lol.

Yeah, I guess it does. I've never actually played True20 or Blue Rose, but I've read the fast play rules and I guess it stuck in my head.

 

[Psion]

But it is still an automatic hit either way right?

But it comes off your vitality, so it's really not any different than HP in this regard, so I fail to see the relevance.

When I ran SW using VP/WP, I could not run it like the movies, with the PCs dodging a hail of blaster fire from hordes of mooks. It resulted in mooks taking out the PCs as often as BBEG.

I have difficulty seeing how that could be, unless you overpower your mooks. A real mook will have difficulty confirming that crit. A BBEG won't.

You seem to continue to misunderstand me.

Im not saying WP is better than MDT (at least not a low MDT like 10 or Con).

Im saying BOTH SYSTEMS are bad fits for SW imo.

I'm not misunderstanding you; I got that. In this particular instance, I was just pointing out that a mook should have difficulty blowing past a character's VP, and don't see the deadly game you speak of being the inevitable result of the SW RCR system as it exists.

You need something more cinematic, not less.

That may not be a feeling that I share. As I have stated in other topics, I find breathtaking excitement at the game table to be a result of token threat, but realistically the token threat should be small, otherwise the game becomes a bloodbath.

I find the D&D game in some way inadequate because that feeling of threat is not there if players can stare down crossbows with impunity. The feeling of breathtaking excitement comes about at the game table IMO because the players have that feeling of token threat in their mind.

This may not be entirely a condemnation for D&D. Perhaps you can veiw it as a game wherein you should be fearing fireballs and dragon breath more than crossbow bolts. But that's not the feel I get from star wars. Blasters make the characters wince, and so it should make the players.

 

[Psion]

I think everyone needs to agree to disagree. It just seems like proponets of whatever system are trying to drown out people by dropping the signal to noise ratio.

FWIW, Chuck and I know each other well, and we can generally get into these sorts of discussions without giving each other a bloody nose. It's just a matter of communicating our reasons behind our preferences, which we may be closing in on.

If I felt like I were arguing with an unabashed fanboi for whom his veiw is unassailable and by definition correct, I would have left off by now.

 

[kenobi65]

I have difficulty seeing how that could be, unless you overpower your mooks. A real mook will have difficulty confirming that crit. A BBEG won't.

I agree with you, Psion. I played every one of the 60+ modules that the RPGA put out for Living Force, GMed a couple dozen sessions of Living Force, as well as GMing a home campaign through twenty or so sessions. In all that time, I don't think I've seen a "mook" KO a PC via a lucky shot more than two or three times. (In total, I've seen PCs drop more than that, but it's far more likely that they suffer a confirmed crit from someone closer to their own level -- i.e., not a mook.)

Not saying that doesn't happen in Vigilance's games...but it sure doesn't reflect my experience with the game.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I was just pointing out that a mook should have difficulty blowing past a character's VP, and don't see the deadly game you speak of being the inevitable result of the SW RCR system as it exists.

Then your games were much more fortunate than ours. We had characters not make it to the last fight of the session quite a few times. It feels like was a majority of the time that this was the case, but it has been a couple of years so I can't be sure about the actual percentage. What I can say for certain was VP/WP was one of the two big reasons we stopped playing (the other being starship combat).

You are correct; it SHOULD be difficult for a mook to take out a PC. For some reason, it wasn't. I'm jumping for joy that they are dropping the VP/WP system. What they have sounds similar to the WoD system. I'm not the biggest fan of the Death Spiral that WoD tended to cause so I am hesitant about that, but I think it would be hard for it to be a worde fit than what we have.

This is Star Wars!!! We should be able to be outnumbered and survive; maybe not killing 100% of the enemy by the end of the encounter - but the PCs should be able to survive being shot at by that many. In our games that just wasn't the case.

 

[Vigilance]

I find the D&D game in some way inadequate because that feeling of threat is not there if players can stare down crossbows with impunity. The feeling of breathtaking excitement comes about at the game table IMO because the players have that feeling of token threat in their mind.

This may not be entirely a condemnation for D&D. Perhaps you can veiw it as a game wherein you should be fearing fireballs and dragon breath more than crossbow bolts. But that's not the feel I get from star wars. Blasters make the characters wince, and so it should make the players.

Well, my feeling of SW is that the players should wince when they face blasters, but JUST wince.

When you look at the way the main characters react to hordes of stormtroopers with blasters in the movies (and based on most write-ups of them they were mid-level), their attitude is not fear, more like "let's do this".

Again, I think my disconnect is on a basic level: Wound Points are more gritty than d20 standard and Star Wars should be less gritty.

This seems to make them a bad match.

I think WP are a great system for many things, including spies/modern action, which is the game they were invented for conveniently enough.

I Just don't think they fit a rollicking, cinematic, space opera, which is what Star Wars tried to *make* them do through two editions.

Chuck