d20 Star Wars Saga Edition news from Gen Con?

Vigilance said:
When was the last time a main character was dropped by a mook in ANY piece of Star Wars fiction?
While the generally most-cited example is Leia getting shot during the Battle of Endor, there's also Luke getting whupped by sand-people in A New Hope. But I guess you could use the excuse that he was pretty low level at the time.
 

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Staffan said:
While the generally most-cited example is Leia getting shot during the Battle of Endor, there's also Luke getting whupped by sand-people in A New Hope. But I guess you could use the excuse that he was pretty low level at the time.

Right, so less than once per movie. Color me unconvinced.

To Psion: I agree that d20M's MDT isn't the answer, because that's also fairly gritty.

My point is, a SW game needs somthing MORE cinematic, not less, something very close (imo) to D&D HP.

GASP! I know... the only genre D&D HP should be used in is D&D. EVER.

Well I disagree. I think SW is heroic fantasy fiction in space and D&D is heroic fantasy fiction on the ground.

In other words, I set the MDT in my SW game at 50. Characters in SW tend to get worn down and NOT dropped by a single shot, unless they are low level (Luke in SW 4) or a non-combatant in the middle of a pitched battle (Leia in ROTJ).

The "immunity syndrome" might be a problem with HP in general, but it just so happens that that's the way characters in heroic fantasy (like SW and LOTR) are.
 

cinematic does not equal immortal

Don't listen to anyone that tells you systems need characters that can withstand lots of damage in order to emmulate characters in movies.

In case you didn't notice, characters in the movies spend a lot of time ducking, running away, and escaping certain death by the skin of their teeth. If players don't care as much, they won't run, they won't duck, and they won't escape by the skin of their teeth cause they can simply walk away terminator-style while they're riddled with ineffectual holes.
 

Goken100 said:
Don't listen to anyone that tells you systems need characters that can withstand lots of damage in order to emmulate characters in movies.

In case you didn't notice, characters in the movies spend a lot of time ducking, running away, and escaping certain death by the skin of their teeth. If players don't care as much, they won't run, they won't duck, and they won't escape by the skin of their teeth cause they can simply walk away terminator-style while they're riddled with ineffectual holes.

Um, except that's more or less what the characters in the movies DID.

Han running AT a big crowd of Stormtroopers? Check.

Luke stopping, standing still, and firing at a whole squad of stormtroopers? Check.

Han, Luke, Leia and Chewie standing in a hallway, with minimal cover, making quips about who's dumber while a whole squad of troopers ineffectually fires down the hallway? Check.

I mean, it's all about how you characterize their actions. You think anything where the PCs aren't acting like Ahnohld means they don't have a lot of HP.

I see low level characters standing around trading quips, with little cover, under withering hales of energy fire.

Chuck
 

Vigilance said:
Um, except that's more or less what the characters in the movies DID.

Han running AT a big crowd of Stormtroopers? Check.

Luke stopping, standing still, and firing at a whole squad of stormtroopers? Check.

Han, Luke, Leia and Chewie standing in a hallway, with minimal cover, making quips about who's dumber while a whole squad of troopers ineffectually fires down the hallway? Check.

I mean, it's all about how you characterize their actions. You think anything where the PCs aren't acting like Ahnohld means they don't have a lot of HP.

I see low level characters standing around trading quips, with little cover, under withering hales of energy fire.

Chuck
I have a friend who role plays without any numbers or dice. That's right, none. Quite a few people do it. Each person is responsible for not only deciding their actions, but also collaborating with other players on the likely and desireable outcome that is consistent with their characters.

If you have a group that can act in character, run away when they are supposed to, but sit around and trade insults while they ignore a rain of enemy death comically, that's great. There's no need for ANY points, let along hit points.

But systems like d20 are made for people that try to test themselves against the odds using skills, creativity, and teamwork. Those folks are not going to just run away because they're supposed to, its consistent with their characters. If the threat isn't real, they won't run. And if they don't run, its not cinematic.

It was exciting when Luke convinced Han to try to rescue the princess because it WAS practically suicidal. If my character tried something like that, I'd expect a very real chance of catching a blaster to the eye. That's cinematic... well to me anyway. To each their own. :)
 

Goken100 said:
But systems like d20 are made for people that try to test themselves against the odds using skills, creativity, and teamwork. Those folks are not going to just run away because they're supposed to, its consistent with their characters. If the threat isn't real, they won't run. And if they don't run, its not cinematic.

It was exciting when Luke convinced Han to try to rescue the princess because it WAS practically suicidal. If my character tried something like that, I'd expect a very real chance of catching a blaster to the eye. That's cinematic... well to me anyway. To each their own. :)

Sigh.

Ok... I didnt realize we were talking about mythical systems no one but you and your home group had ever played.

Let's assume D20 STAR WARS is going to use a D20 RULE SYSTEM, not a narrativist system where the players and GM share responsibilities to narrate out a scene.

Ok, now assuming it's going to use a d20 type system, do you think it should be cinematic or gritty?

I happen to think it should be very cinematic, because it emulates movies where characters attack tanks with hand weapons, and win! (Luke and the AT-At in ESB)

And lest you think that was a fluke or some weird force thing (even though he used a sword and grenade), Chewie swings onto a tank by a VINE, pops it open like a can of tab and takes it over in the next movie.

John Wayne in "The Green Berets" has nothing on these guys.

Chuck

PS And keep in mind, just because you use a D&D style HP system, that doesn't mean there's no incentive for the characters to hide. Since there's limited access to healing, the occasional hit by the armies of mooks they encounter will weaken them for the final encounter with the Sith Lord or whatever BBEG waits at the end of the adventure.
 

Fair enough. I'll just make one more point about massive hit points not being the same thing as cinematic. Han didn't get shot a single time when he charged down the hall at the storm troopers. Nor did anyone ever take a hit that had little or no effect. If anyone ever got hit, they felt it. Like, ouch that was my arm, felt it. That's quite different from Han charging down a hallway... GETTING HIT A FEW TIMES... but charging down anyway.

By your own definition, heroes should have some way of avoiding getting hit, not shrugging off damage from "mooks". As much as people laugh at how bad storm troopers are at hitting anything, they wouldn't even go SEE the movies if the main characters were constantly getting shot and didn't seem to mind.
 

Goken100 said:
Fair enough. I'll just make one more point about massive hit points not being the same thing as cinematic. Han didn't get shot a single time when he charged down the hall at the storm troopers. Nor did anyone ever take a hit that had little or no effect. If anyone ever got hit, they felt it. Like, ouch that was my arm, felt it. That's quite different from Han charging down a hallway... GETTING HIT A FEW TIMES... but charging down anyway.

By your own definition, heroes should have some way of avoiding getting hit, not shrugging off damage from "mooks". As much as people laugh at how bad storm troopers are at hitting anything, they wouldn't even go SEE the movies if the main characters were constantly getting shot and didn't seem to mind.

Hit points do not represent getting hit and shrugging off damage Terminator style though.

That is the disconnect I think.

Hit points represent luck, dodging and grazes.

Episode I's sword fight is a good example of this. You can either say only two blows landed (the Darth Maul hit that killed Qui-Gon and the Obi-Wan hit that killed Maul) or you can see that fight as HP being steadily worn down.

Same with the mooks.

HP represent near misses, which is why a 10th level hero can have as many HP as an Elephant. The fact that it represents "telling blows" and not just HITS is borne out by the Armor Class/Defense System. If you have a 10 AC and are wearing platemail (for a total AC of 18 or so), any attack roll between 11 and 18 hits you but inflicts no damage.

THAT is you shrugging attacks off. If someone rolls a modified 19 and inflicts damage, it could be a graze that leaves you bleeding from the shoulder, or something.

It's an abstract system, meaning you don't micro-manage every detail of combat. As a matter of fact, the system SW currently uses, is one that tries to make this crystal clear to people who can't handle the abstractness of the system.

You have vitality, which repesents you doding and getting with with near misses, and then Wound Points, which repesent your physical body, an ACTUAL hit. In other words, Vitality Points work just like HP, but add a "winner take all" system where one good blow can kill at any time.

Again, I have no PROBLEM with alternate HP solutions, Ive used them myself for differing games and have used Wound Points in ALL SORTS of games.

However, the way damage works should fit the genre you're emulating.

And SW is, without a doubt, VERY cinematic.

That's the only point I was trying to make here. People are upset that Wound Points are going away, but they never fit SW in the first place. They are a MORE gritty variant, not less and one that I never felt was suited to SW.

See, because they run around getting shot at by armies of mooks, if you run SW that way, mooks will take out PCs more than any other method in the game. If 40 mooks are firing at you, and they need a natural 20 to hit, that means two will hit (on average).

Since a natural 20 is also a crit, that means you're probably going to go down and start dying from one of those lucky mook hits.

Of all the HP variants out there, VP/Wp is one of the LEAST likely to represent the experience of the movies.

Not a good choice.

That's all Im saying.

Chuck
 

Goken100 said:
Don't listen to anyone that tells you systems need characters that can withstand lots of damage in order to emmulate characters in movies.

In case you didn't notice, characters in the movies spend a lot of time ducking, running away, and escaping certain death by the skin of their teeth. If players don't care as much, they won't run, they won't duck, and they won't escape by the skin of their teeth cause they can simply walk away terminator-style while they're riddled with ineffectual holes.
All this ducking is "simulated" by HP. The alternative might be to make it some kind of defense check/roll/save - but that would mean that characters could be seriously hurt or taken down in the midst of a "scene" - which is not how it works on screen. People tend to die at the end of the scene or arc (a neccessity of storytelling, surely, but don't we want to tell a story - our story - in a RPG, too?)
 

I think some kind of Action Points that let you avoid hits might be the best way to model the genre. The heroes dive for cover and avoid fights (from a meta-game perspective) because they have limited APs. But when they have to take the risk, they can do so pretty boldly because they still have som APs socked away. When they run out of APs they start working on their actual "health" (whether you call it Wound Points, Damage Condition or simply a fairly small number of HPs). So when Daddy slices off your hand at the end of the adventure, you're in BAD shape, even though you were mowing through hordes of mooks earlier.
 

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