d20 Star Wars Saga Edition news from Gen Con?

[satori01]

I'm looking forward to seeing the new system. The force system just did not feel like Star Wars, it felt more like Wheel of Time.
Balance is good, but if a game based off Star Wars does not lend itself to the feel of the movies then no matter how great a system it has failed.

The VP/WP system made it really rough if you wanted to play a droid character, and lets face it, many people want to play a droid.

A revised force system sounds great, Force Adept always seemed funky to me, Tech Specialist was never played in my limited experience, I liked the Fringer but as a catch all class, it can be done w/o.

As an aside, all of the EU cries of I wana play a Drothmir Witch or the Big Kahuna of In Out Burger ... blah blah. Your cries fall on deaf ears over here in my computer. I know many people are fans of the EU, and that is cool, but should the game be designed for the Canon. In the Canon, what we have seen on screen are 2 force traditions that are nearly identical in every way... anything else should be an expansion, or up to the creative EU GM to create.

 

[genshou]

The VP/WP system made it really rough if you wanted to play a droid character, and lets face it, many people want to play a droid.

Wait, what in VP/WP makes it rough to play a droid character?

 

[DnDChick]

Wait, what in VP/WP makes it rough to play a droid character?

Most droids only have "professional" levels, and therefore don't have VP. In my short-lived SWd20 game, our R2 unit was nearly torn apart by mynocks in 2 rounds.

 

[RangerWickett]

The way I made VP/WP work properly was simple:

Critical hits don't do automatic WP damage.

In this system, once you run out of VP you can actually be hurt, and suffer wounds that take a while to recover from, like losing a hand or being mauled by a snow monster. (I know, I'm lame for forgetting what it was actually called.) Crits just deal double damage to your VP.

It's different from just HP because the terminology provides a clear differentiation between 'dodging' and 'getting hit.' The term 'hit point' makes you think you get hit, which may be why some folks don't like it for Star Wars. However, vitality and wound points more clearly tell the player that he's either dodging or he's getting hurt. You only get hurt when you can't dodge no more. Until then, you're always assumed to be ducking, leaping, and taking quick cover to avoid being hurt. Eventually, though, you get tired, and that's when the blaster actually hits you, or the sword actually cuts off your arm and both your legs.

By the way, will the new Star Wars game accurately reflect the bonus gained from having the high ground? I'm thinking something like, "If you have the high ground, all your attacks are critical hits, and you gain the ability to make three attacks of opportunity instead of one."

 

[Ranger REG]

The way I made VP/WP work properly was simple:

Critical hits don't do automatic WP damage.

In this system, once you run out of VP you can actually be hurt, and suffer wounds that take a while to recover from, like losing a hand or being mauled by a snow monster. (I know, I'm lame for forgetting what it was actually called.) Crits just deal double damage to your VP.

It's different from just HP because the terminology provides a clear differentiation between 'dodging' and 'getting hit.' The term 'hit point' makes you think you get hit, which may be why some folks don't like it for Star Wars. However, vitality and wound points more clearly tell the player that he's either dodging or he's getting hurt. You only get hurt when you can't dodge no more. Until then, you're always assumed to be ducking, leaping, and taking quick cover to avoid being hurt. Eventually, though, you get tired, and that's when the blaster actually hits you, or the sword actually cuts off your arm and both your legs.

By the way, will the new Star Wars game accurately reflect the bonus gained from having the high ground? I'm thinking something like, "If you have the high ground, all your attacks are critical hits, and you gain the ability to make three attacks of opportunity instead of one."

I dunno, dude.

It's equivalent to D&D HP with a modified death's door rule (instead of -10 HP, you take you Con score as negative HP) and a modified Remain Conscious feat (instead of fighting as normal after you reach 0 or negative HP, you fight with fatigued).

Worse yet, unlike D&D HP, you can rest to replenish VP at one HP per character level per hour.

 

[Goken100]

By the way, will the new Star Wars game accurately reflect the bonus gained from having the high ground? I'm thinking something like, "If you have the high ground, all your attacks are critical hits, and you gain the ability to make three attacks of opportunity instead of one."

Er, I don't think the movies meant to imply that the high ground was as good as all that. I think that Anakin and Obi-Won were just supposed to be so rediculously evenly matched, that the high ground tipped that scales. And with light sabers, that means its gonna be harder to count to ten when you wake up. I do support making the rules to reflect the ways that the fights happened in the movies, however. So some sort of bonus should certainly exist.

 

[Psion]

I dunno, dude.

It's equivalent to D&D HP with a modified death's door rule (instead of -10 HP, you take you Con score as negative HP) and a modified Remain Conscious feat (instead of fighting as normal after you reach 0 or negative HP, you fight with fatigued).

In other words, not equivalent, or at least, different in some important ways. Not everyone has the remain conscious feat, and you don't die at 0 wp.

To address all the differences, I refer you to my four conceptual hangups I have with HPs as they exist in D&D:

1. Healing/Damage dichotomy - I can buy modeling heroism with escalating HP... and natural healing makes more sense now too. But the fact that "flat-rate" (magical) healing becomes LESS effective (i.e., doesn't scale with HP) with level doesn't match the model and sort of feels wrong to me.
2. Invincibility - being held at knifepoint or faced down with a dozen crossbow wielding guards all the sudden isn't much of a manipulation technique against high level characters, and jumping off cliffs becomes a viable options. Yeah, some heroic models fit this, but I think by default it's a little over the top.
3. Up or down - You never show the effects of your injuries until 0 hp. Until then, you receive no penalties. Any after a knock down drag out fight, you usually are just spiffy the next day.
4. Heroic sages - Linking HP to level works for me for PCs -- its a growth of heroic prowess. But when it comes to NPCs, it doesn't work so well. The greatest cook or sage in the world need not have more HP than a 1st level commoner AFAIAC. (Oddly, the only d20 branded game that really tries to correct this is Star Wars.)

Now, it's noteworthy that some HP variants address some of these faults (e.g., the d20 modern take on MDT addresses the invincibility issue), but VP/WP is the only one that addresses all of them that I know of.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Now, it's noteworthy that some HP variants address some of these faults (e.g., the d20 modern take on MDT addresses the invincibility issue), but VP/WP is the only one that addresses all of them that I know of.

Do you think that damage save mechanism (like True20) might meet all these requirements too? At a first glance it seems as though it covers each of those four possibilities with its basically non scaling toughness save.

 

[Psion]

Do you think that damage save mechanism (like True20) might meet all these requirements too? At a first glance it seems as though it covers each of those four possibilities with its basically non scaling toughness save.

Short answer - probably.

Long answer - True20 is not an hp type system, so I wasn't really considering it.

Longer answer - I think I first started thinking about my take on "what doesn't quite jive with me about hp" before True20 was around, so I definitely wasn't thinking about it when first stated, but in the context of the current discussion, see the "long answer."

 

[Ranger REG]

In other words, not equivalent,

My bad. I mean "closely resembles."

or at least, different in some important ways. Not everyone has the remain conscious feat, and you don't die at 0 wp.

Only it reminded me of my old-school houseruled HP I used in AD&D. As you said, damage both normal and critical affects only VP, which is like HP. When VP is exhausted, damage then affects WP, which is like negative hit points equal to Con score (i.e., my houseruled death's door rules).

The difference here is you're already incapacitated at negative HP as per normal death's door rules, but you're not incapacitated as long you have WP -- assuming it is equal to Con score -- above 0. You don't fight as a healthy person though but at least you're not down.

But I'm guessing at 0 WP, you do go down, and from there you track negative HP as per normal death's door rules (you die at -10).

Also, if you let VP healing rate "as is" you heal at 1 point per character level per hour, unless you prefer using HP healing rate of 1 point per day.