Dagger damage!

[Darklone]

Me not want no light clubs

Good summary nifft. I still prefer throwing axes. Better sound when they hit.

 

[Rhun]

Daggers are fine as is. I've got no fewer than three PCs among the different games that I run that use them to very good effect.

 

[MarauderX]

Daggers are LIGHT and SIMPLE. That's huge.

Shortspears are simple, but one-handed (not light, so no TWF).
Handaxes can't be thrown (and are not simple).
Throwing Axes have lame crit stats, and are not simple.
Clubs have lame crit stats, and are not light (no TWF).

Daggers are nice.

-- N

The dagger is defeated by the combination above as well as here. The question you were looking to solve was 'Why use a dagger?', and the answer has been solved by most of the above and below.

Short swords are Light but Martial - But does better damage, so why use a dagger when you already have the proficiency to use something better?
Rapiers - One-handed & Martial - can use with TWF, same deal as short sword but with better criticals.

I'm looking at the realistic way in which commoners might use ambushes to their advantage in a city or village to commit murder. Daggers would be used as they are covert and nasty. Lopping off heads with scythes says something, but knifing someone in an ally is spookier.

 

[Nifft]

Daggers are strong because they have so many different things going for them. It's true that you can TWF better with short swords (if you never need to throw them), you can finesse better with a rapier (if you never need to throw or TWF, and if you never grapple), you can crit just as well with a handaxe (if you have martial weapons), but... a dagger does everything.

On the subject of dark alleys, daggers have another nice advantage:

A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it.

Why would you use a dagger when it's outclassed in every specific application? Because it's better to carry six daggers than two handaxes, two javelins and a rapier. Daggers are flexible. Weapon Focus (Dagger) gives you a +1 in melee and missile attacks.

Note: I'm not saying you shouldn't do anything for dagger users. I'm just saying that daggers, like Bards, aren't as weak as they first appear. You should be careful beefing them up, because they're pretty darn good already.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rhun]

I'm looking at the realistic way in which commoners might use ambushes to their advantage in a city or village to commit murder. Daggers would be used as they are covert and nasty. Lopping off heads with scythes says something, but knifing someone in an ally is spookier.

1d4 damage is scary enough to kill a 1st level commoner, so I don't see why a commoner wouldn't use one to knife another. And, as Nifft pointed out, they are much easier to conceal, which means they would be a weapon of choice for such a thing.

Also, FWIW...to the idea of having a dagger do 1d12 in certain situations...if you use this, all rogues will begin to use daggers. It will become a favored weapon for them, and will wreak havoc when used in association with Sneak Attack.

 

[Felnar]

Daggers would be used as they are covert and nasty. Lopping off heads with scythes says something, but knifing someone in an ally is spookier.

you answered your own question
daggers are covert (concealable before and after the hit)
daggers are spooky, greataxes are scary
try getting a greataxe anywhere near an important target, its not going to happen
(unless you're a Chaser in Austrialia)

 

[Nifft]

For Commoners (and Experts) the Dagger is an even more obvious choice: those guys don't get proficiency with Martial weapons.

So, it's a dagger, or a shortspear, or a club. And the dagger is just plain better, especially for stealth ops (which is how a Commoner talks about "stabbin' some guy in da alley").

Ooo, one last note on why daggers rule: look at damage types. Daggers deal piercing or slashing. Very flexible weapons! Your +2 holy returning dagger will cut through rakshasas and zombies. (And c'mon, who doesn't have a +2 holy returning sidearm?)

Cheers, -- N

PS: Now I'm starting to wonder if I should nerf daggers...

 

[Tetsubo]

No one carries, let alone uses, daggers. To bring this essential light weapon back to the forground, I am thinking of making the following change in my campaigns.

A dagger, when used as the primary weapon, does 1d12 damage to opponents that are flatfooted or otherwise denied their dexterity bonus. Rogues using daggers, as a special class ability, also do 1d12 damage when flanking. Rogues still add the extra Xd6 for backstabbing.

The dagger as a light weapon is easier to guide around an opponents armor or into certain weaknesses. Using a short sword or rapier for such things is still effective, but is clumsier. The effect I am looking for is to have the weapon as deadlier than others when unseen, just like many movies. But when an opponent sees the puny knife, the rogue quickly realizes he better upgrade or be stuck with 1d4.

Thoughts? Concerns? Compliments?

Every character I have ever designed (that didn't have the VoP) has had at least one dagger. If they have Two-Weapon Fighting they carry two of them... *I* carry a knife everyday and have done so for the past thirty years... anyone in a fantasy setting is also going to carry a blade... do you know (literally) how handy a knife or dagger is? I couldn't get by without one...

 

[Darklone]

Every character I have ever designed (that didn't have the VoP) has had at least one dagger. If they have Two-Weapon Fighting they carry two of them... *I* carry a knife everyday and have done so for the past thirty years... anyone in a fantasy setting is also going to carry a blade... do you know (literally) how handy a knife or dagger is? I couldn't get by without one...

When I still went to LARPs, I had about 15 daggers with me. For the rare case that my twohanded hammer, the longbow, the onehanded crossbow or the axe/shortsword combo plus the shuriken didn't suffice.

I do miss these kind of walking armouries in tabletop RPGs.