Daggerheart "Description on Demand" a GM DON'T

[TwoSix]

How could a game go "off the rails" if there were no rails in the first place?!? That is a strange statement to say the least.

"Off the rails? We're on a safari!"

 

[darjr]

Sure. But what it hasn't been about was D&D. Like, nobody asked about D&D until someone said "Oh, but in D&D this is terrible..."

Well, fine, sure. But this was never positioned as being for D&D.

Here’s the OP actual question after some background.

What have your experiences been? Do you think it's immersion-breaking?

Your mileage may vary but that looks like an invitation to talk about the technique inside our outside of DH.

The depth of experience with the technique and D&D at this point far eclipses what is DH specific.

Why is it that important to you?

 

[TwoSix]

Your mileage may vary but that looks like an invitation to talk about the technique inside our outside of DH.

The depth of experience with the technique and D&D at this point far eclipses what is DH specific.

Why is it that important to you?

The OP of this thread specifically mentioned D&D, so it's certainly in bounds for this thread.

That being said, a lot of people tend to conflate "Is this technique valid" with "Is this technique valid for D&D?", when those are two distinct questions.

 

[TiQuinn]

Why is it that important to you?

Because it appears yet to be another instance where people cannot realize that a technique that is primarily used for narrative, storytelling games is being misinterpreted and misapplied.

 

[darjr]

Because it appears yet to be another instance where people cannot realize that a technique that is primarily used for narrative, storytelling games is being misinterpreted and misapplied.

well it’s about RPGs a subjective pastime almost all the way down.

Sorry it’s frustrating.

I’m kinda reveling in it. Not just some of the neat stuff this thread has in it but also seeing other people approach the topic in their own way. Strictly correct or not.

Any suggestions?

 

[TiQuinn]

well it’s about RPGs a subjective pastime almost all the way down.

Sorry it’s frustrating.

I’m kinda reveling in it. Not just some of the neat stuff this thread has in it but also seeing other people approach the topic in their own way. Strictly correct or not.

Any suggestions?

I’m very happy you found it productive.

 

[Clint_L]

I love Daggerheart and its ethos of "Ask they players questions and incorporate the answers." I immediately gravitated toward it and have found is useful and fun.
But when discussing Daggerheart on a forum, one person was all "Oh, it has Description on Demand? That's a hard no, I'm out."

I hadn't heard the (slightly loaded) term "Description on Demand, but I looked it up and found Justin Alexander's blog post declaring this technique one of his "GM DON'Ts."

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Description-on-demand tends to be a fad that periodically cycles through the RPG meme-sphere. When it does so, the general perception seems to be that every player thinks this is the greatest thing since chocolate-dipped donuts.

So let’s start there: This is not true. Many players do love it. But many players DO NOT. In fact, a lot of players hate it. There are a significant number of players for whom this is antithetical to the entire reason they want to play an RPG and it will literally ruin the game for them.

I’m one of those players. I’ve quit games because of it and have zero regrets for having done so.
​

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He talks about this being immersion breaking because it requires a shift in the POV. I disagree, it doesn't necessarily. Asking a player "what do you see that's different about the bark on these trees?" is just that player imagining seeing something, and describing it.

As I said, I was discussing the game online, and I described a scene where an NPC asks a PC where they got their sword. This felt like a normal interaction that wouldn't be out of place in any D&D game I've played. But the person, another GM, said "SEE??! That's Description on Demand. If I did that at my table there'd be 5 minutes of awkward silence and stammering. You're putting them on the spot. You can't expect players to be able to do that!" I'm like "your player can't come up with something like 'from my father' or 'I found it'?"

Now I recognize that different tables have different styles. But reading the Alexandrian blog and with the interaction with this GM, it sounds like to some people this is WRONG WRONG WRONG and if you ask about someone's sword you better be ready for some quitting-the-game level blowback.

What have your experiences been? Do you think it's immersion-breaking?

​

I make the opportunities available for players. Some run with it, most do not, and some are clearly nonplussed and dislike the experience intensely, specifically because they feel put on the spot. Oh, and a few of the players who run with it will become disruptive and start competing. So you have to learn to gauge your group. In general, I think it is a tool that works best with experienced groups that prioritze RP. Practice using games like Fiasco, where everyone takes turn in the storytelling, is very useful before springing it in the middle of a D&D session or something.

As a teacher, you (should) learn to avoid situations where you are puting students on the spot so that they feel you are expecting one "right" answer and don't know how to give you what you want. A lot of folks have been traumatized by these sprts of experiences, so you have to be gentle with how you present "description-on-demand" situations. (note that even the term "on demand" speas to a level of anxiety about it).

As a rule of thumb: different people enjoy different things, and everyone sees the world a bit differently. Just because you enjoy something, don't assume that everyone will or should, or that it is the gold standard.

 

[Clint_L]

I note that in Age of Umbra, the one time Mercer really uses this technique (episode 7, I believe, when they are exploring the house), the players, experienced as they are, don't do anything consequential with it.

 

[Agamon]

I tell ya, if any players companied about having to think a bit during a game, I'd turn around and answer every PC question with, "How dare you put me on the spot. Any questions I can answer with these notes in front of me?"

 

[Clint_L]

I tell ya, if any players companied about having to think a bit during a game, I'd turn around and answer every PC question with, "How dare you put me on the spot. Any questions I can answer with these notes in front of me?"

To me, this seems like a disengenuous or unkind response. Presumably, you've chosen to GM and know what goes with it. Many players do NOT want to GM, and people in general can be put off by being put under unexpected pressure.