Daily Powers don't belong on the Fighter

[Bedrockgames]

I think history has shown that this is not necessarily the case...

-O

It is all about setting the numbers correctly ahead of time. For example give power attack omly to fighters, then give them multiple attacks and maybe a cleave like ability on top of that. As they advance the power attack gets better so that they take less of a penalty to get the extra damage. I think this would work very well.

The have to set he numbers properly though.

 

[Remathilis]

I'd rather see it as a critical bonus for the fighter. Roll a 20? Well, you're in such a good position in the fight, there's a second opening for you.

The problem is it takes the activation out of the hands of the player and puts it to random chance. Maybe it will kick in during an important fight, maybe it wont...

Player: I attack the ogre, and... 20! Woot! Extra attack baby!
DM: What's the damage?
Player: 22 damage, and for my seco...
DM: 22 damage drops the ogre. Good fight guys!
Player:

Something like this doesn't bother me. My problem with dailies has been (as other threads have shown) the idea of fighters miraculously being able to find exactly one chance to use his Awesome Tripping Blow attack only once per day. However, luck re-rolls, adrenaline surges, barbarian rages, smites, ki-strikes, spells, channel divinities, and bardic music can all be regulated daily in order to create some element of game balance.

 

[Umbran]

I don't have a problem with non-magical characters having daily powers. I take the "daily" as a game or genre abstraction, not as a literal simulation of a physical reality.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I don't even like daily powers on magic users, so I especially dislike them for martial characters. It's not a huge deal, though. I got over this dnd-ism a long time ago.

 

[Gorgoroth]

my big

worry is that these action surges are the main way to gain extra attacks on the fighter, just level up and eventually you'll get more double attacks per day. I'd much rather a theme such as TWF or some stance, granted by a theme, that gives you an extra attack (both at -2) and no str-bonus on each, but with an AC bonus if you are dual-wielding. Two swords is better defense than one, or a two-handed sword, surely. You don't open yourself up as much during each strike to ripostes if your swing goes wide or wild.

Daily powers I kind of don't like, but I hate encounter powers more. I don't want to see some artificial "encounter" delimitation that cuts the day up into 5 minute chunks. Encounter powers for martial characters made every battle the same, at least with dailies you have to chose when to use them. In 4e if you don't use your encounter power nearly every encounter, you've chosen the wrong one, which piegeon-holes you into repetitive tactics. I remember one of my rangers kept his offhand strike for finishing off a tough enemy that was near dead, this is cool but it got boring after a while. The optimal play tactic of 1 quarry / round meant I would hoard such powers for not only the BBEGs, but just to keep up my DPR / quarry damage each round in case I missed with both twin strike attacks.

But yeah, I can see 2x+ daily resources like this fighter surge thingy is better than a single time per day...and yes very much like rage rounds. But those rounds should be comparable to the number of spells wizards should get. I.e. if a wizard has 5 uses of prepared spells that can go boom, let's make this fighter surge thingy be 5x too. Or at least somewhat comparable. Or not.

Also, I don't see why he couldn't use 2 extra attacks, getting a total of 3, i.e. blowing it all in one round to finish off the dragon in an epic moment. Giving the fighter a REAL Nova round to look forward to, for when he has advantage on a crucial monster, would be uber to me.

One thing's for sure, this surge thingy looks like it will kill iterative attacks. I hated having different bonuses for subsequent attacks with my PF characters, but I would surely consider a theme in DDN that allowed me an extra attack every action, with all at a -2 and no str-bonus at first, then increase the str-bonus as you go up, and decrease the penalty.

 

[Sunseeker]

From a balancing perspective, saying that mundane characters should either be unable to do something at all, or be able to do it whenever they want makes for poor balancing. Or at least very limited design.

Take the 4e Slayer for example, the triggered/activated/static abilities of Stances allow Basic Attack to do a variety of creative things, but none of them are particularly exciting. They're minor alterations to what a Slayer is expected to do to begin with. The Slayer is interesting, but has limited design space as adding many complex things to "basic attack" with no limitation would quickly become far too powerful.

I think it would be interesting to see daily abilities tied into some kind of HP burn, since HP is already acknowledged to be "mojo" as much as it is actual health, let fighters take special actions at some kind of HP burn to represent exhausting themselves. Perhaps tie it in to Warlord "healing" of granting temporary hit-points, ie: more "mojo", that Fighters could then burn to use special abilities.

I think it all ties the concepts together pretty nicely. Warlord gives you a pep talk, granting extra "mojo", which you then burn to do more powerful abilities.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Please do not bring back 3e's iterative attacks. I beg of you, please. One action per turn is more than enough. All the extra die rolling of extra attacks is pointless and slows things down.

I agree completely.

Special maneuvers is a potential solution. The problem is that special maneuvers is that they take away from the fighter's main niche. He does consistent damage to enemies so that they have to try and take him out or he will kill them, one by one. If you want the special maneuvers anyway, then you have to come up with maneuvers that still do damage (perhaps reduced damage) for the gained special effect.

In the Whirlwind Attack above, I would personally have a problem with the fighter rolling to attack potentially eight targets and doing potentially max damage to all of them. I would much rather the fighter get a single attack roll on one target, and if he hits, he gets a small amount of damage on the other targets. Perhaps Whirlwind attack also gives the fighter advantage so that he has a better chance of success.

Same goes for Disarm or Trip or anything else. Each maneuver needs to do at least some token amount of damage. Otherwise the fighter is most definitely not pulling his weight.

I don't agree with you that a fighter must be doing damage every round in order to be "pulling his weight." If a wizard spends his action casting a charm spell or some other debilitating effect rather than shooting a fireball, that's still a good use of his turn even if it doesn't deal damage. The same is true of a fighter tripping, disarming, etc. He's putting the enemy in a compromising position that may greatly reduce its effectiveness, make it more vulnerable to future attacks, prevent it from fleeing or repositioning, etc.

 

[variant]

Please do not bring back 3e's iterative attacks. I beg of you, please. One action per turn is more than enough. All the extra die rolling of extra attacks is pointless and slows things down.

I disagree, it's the easiest way to balance the fighter with the other classes and keep it unique. Having the fighter make an extra attack every time it gets around to him isn't going to significantly slow down the combat anymore than having the wizard roll more dice for his fireball or the cleric rolling more dice for his healing. A turn based resource pool is also the easiest thing to keep track of.

 

[RigaMortus2]

So people want more than just "i swing a sword and attack" mechanics for the fighter because they are "boring".

Then WotC gives them some cool flavorful side abilities, but limit their use, and people STILL complain.

Make up your minds people.

If the Fighter could simply use his "Super Cool Mega Attack" every round, there'd be no incentive not to use it. And it would take the place of the Basic Attack anyway.

 

[erf_beto]

I think it would be interesting to see daily abilities tied into some kind of HP burn, since HP is already acknowledged to be "mojo" as much as it is actual health, let fighters take special actions at some kind of HP burn to represent exhausting themselves. Perhaps tie it in to Warlord "healing" of granting temporary hit-points, ie: more "mojo", that Fighters could then burn to use special abilities.

I think it all ties the concepts together pretty nicely. Warlord gives you a pep talk, granting extra "mojo", which you then burn to do more powerful abilities.

It does sound very good! I'd endorse this, specially if warlord healing and second wind become TempHP which disappears after the fight. To have the fighter "nova" and brutally end the combat sooner because he'd rather burn his extra THP than see them disappear, that would be totally awesome!