D&D 5E Damage on a Miss: Because otherwise Armour Class makes no sense

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
How do you know this? How do you know it isn't that the DoaM mechanic didn't do what the designers wanted it to do and that's why they got rid of it? You seem hung up on liking the DoaM mechanic.

I don't know. It could have not did what was needed.
My point is DoaM is a oddly shaped peg. It fits only the hole that matches its shape. When that hole is found, DoaM should be inserted.

And in the same method, the GWF has a hole and the peg in it... doesn't quite fully fit in the eyes of some.
 

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aramis erak

Legend
And yet the game has had auto-hit magic missile for most of its history, and auto-damage AoEs for all of its history, with no apparent loss of tension.

The auto-hit magic missile was also extremely low availability compared to a sword. Given the AD&D 1 minute round, a fighter could be using his sword 200 or 300 times a day. That wizard can't. That sword does more damage per round than a single MM missile, tho admittedly, the caster's not flinging one... MM's tension isn't the miss, it's the decision of when to use it.

Similar situation for all AoE spells. The damage on a miss there (more correctly reduced damage on saving throw) was a way of making the decision less agonizing. The better ones do better damage, but are rare enough the decision to use is important.

Too much tension is bad, but not enough is worse.
 

pemerton

Legend
The auto-hit magic missile was also extremely low availability compared to a sword. Given the AD&D 1 minute round, a fighter could be using his sword 200 or 300 times a day. That wizard can't.
This is all in-fiction. But we are not interested in the imaginary tension experienced by the imaginary characters in the imaginary gameworld. We are interested in the real tension experienced by the real people in the real world, sitting around a kitchen table playing the game.

For them, swords aren't particularly more prevalent than attack spells - as best I'm aware, wizards and fighters are the two most popular classes in the game, and have been for most of its history. And I wouldn't be surprised if wizards are more popular than great weapon fighters (though that is pure intuition, resting on the fact that GWF means forgoing the shield, which is one of the fighter's class specialties).

MM's tension isn't the miss, it's the decision of when to use it.

Similar situation for all AoE spells. The damage on a miss there (more correctly reduced damage on saving throw) was a way of making the decision less agonizing.
In 4e, the at-will magic missile was changed from requiring an attack roll to auto-damage, mostly (as best I can tell) because the customer base wanted it to be auto-damage as it had been for the previous few decades.

In both 3E and 4e, a wizard could use an auto-damage effect bascially every round of combat. Likewise in AD&D from around 5th level, by which point, between spells and wands, the MU would generally have enough spells to cast one every round.

The meaningufl decision point for the player of a magic-user isn't whether or not to deal damage, it's which spell to use (based on considerations of degree of damage, number of targets, risk of friendly fire, etc). The comparable decision point for a fighter is which target to attack. The prospect of missing rather than hitting - ie of dealing no damage - is, in my view, no more fundamental to the latter than the former.
 

aramis erak

Legend
This is all in-fiction. But we are not interested in the imaginary tension experienced by the imaginary characters in the imaginary gameworld. .

Wrong. The tension is in the resource management by the players.

At its core, a lot of older edition (pre-3E) play is mechanically focused upon the management of resources. Hence the emphasis on rations, torches water. (5E also supports this kind of play.)

A lot of early adventures have a push your luck, drive on or retreat kind of feel; How far can you go before running out of food and water (or spells and HP) forces you to retreat.

Yes, it's in the D&D as character-scale boardgame mode of play. But much of the good tension in play is in the press-your-luck aspects of the resource management subgame.
 


pemerton

Legend
The tension is in the resource management by the players.
Obviously. Which is why comments about "AD&D's 1 minute rounds" are irrelevant - the duration of the round in the fiction has no bearing on the players' real world experience of tension.

At its core, a lot of older edition (pre-3E) play is mechanically focused upon the management of resources.

<snip>

Yes, it's in the D&D as character-scale boardgame mode of play. But much of the good tension in play is in the press-your-luck aspects of the resource management subgame.
This is not in dispute. But damage-on-miss is pretty much orthogonal to this. DoaM doesn't reduce resource management; and in 4e it is actually a component of it. No traditional D&D class has more resource management than the magic-user, yet the magic-user has almost always had auto-damage effects. The choice is which one (out of a suite of available spells, wands, etc) to use.

The only argument I can see in the neightbourhood is that, because the only choice about deployment the fighter player has to make is who to attack, then the only way to introduce tension and uncertainty into the player of a fighter is via a miss chance (and corresponding lack of auto-damage). Which is basically admitting that the fighter doesn't require resource maangement, and hence is about lottery play instead.

In my view the argument fails for another resaon to: the damage die roll is part of the "luck" aspect of resource management, and DoaM preserves that, with the to hit roll in effect becoming a component of the damage roll, determining whether the damage is STR or W+STR.
 


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