Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting

[Hypersmurf]

I guess he must have been working under the assumption that every TWF would have energy damage weapons or carry a wide assortment of different metal weapons.

Go Go Gadget Golfbag!

-Hyp.

 

[RangerWickett]

Heh. Funny. Last night my group got into an hour-long discussion about the merits of Two-hands vs. Two-weapons. (one player was making a new character, so we had some free time)

Our situation is that we have two main fighters in the group. One is a Fighter 9/Rogue 3, who wields a powerful greatsword. It's a unique item, but I'd label it as a +2 flaming burst greatsword. He has a Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16. He wears full plate.

The other is a Ranger 11/Barbarian 1, who dual wields shortswords (actually she uses sickles because they look cooler, but I stat them as shortswords). She just has a pair of +1 sickles. She has Str 20, Dex 18, Con 16. She wears mithril chainmail.

Last night, as a test to see if the rules for TWF were broken, we had them spar against each other. The sickle wielder won by a margin of about 40 hit points. Six attacks per round versus 2, well, I can't say it was very surprising.

Now sure, the Fighter is part rogue, and the ranger was in a barbarian rage, but they were pretty much of a mind that a high-strength dual-wielder could kick much more butt. I still held that TWF is weaker than other forms, and I actually want to reduce the penalties by 2 points (so you could dual wield shortswords with no penalty if you had the feat). Really, dual shortswords ain't much different from one greatsword, except for when you get energy-damage weapons.

And then the game actually started, and the party ended up fighting a wizard. A wizard with 30 hit points, and AC 18. And stoneskin. Well, the ranger kept chasing him around the battlefield, getting in two attacks each round (I let you swing with both weapons in a charge), while the fighter stayed to deal with the wizard's bodyguards. Over five rounds of combat, the ranger managed to deal 15 damage to the guy. Then the Fighter charged over, flanked the guy, sneak attacked and power attacked, and hit for d12+2d6+22 damage.

From now on, the ranger is going to focus on the mindless hordes. Let the guy with the huge off sword deal with the big bads.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

What about sword-and-board? Is it just accepted that the style is completely inferior to both TWF and THF? If so, should it not be upped further? What could be done about that? Perhaps a chance for active parries with the shield (maybe opposed roll against one attack per round)?
It does seem that with energy damage and sneak attack the two-weapon fighter has a real advantage in most cases. The best option for the THF is to use Spring Attack or Tumble to limit the exchanges to one attack per round. The Fighter/Rogue in RangerWickett's example, wearing Full Plate, couldn't do that. (Although shouldn't he have had 3 attacks per round, rather than 2, with BAB +11?)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As to carrying multiple weapons, I'd say that it's pretty standard in 3.5 (although more for finesse and standard fighters than for power attacking brutes). They can be stored in the HHH. Or they can be stored in a quiver of Ehlonna (if appropriate). Or, the six shortswords could be stored two on the back (using the standard fantasy conceit that you can effectively strap a sword to your back) and four in a pair of double sheathes (like would be used for paired chinese Dao or Jian swords)--one on each hip.

That said, high strength TWF characters have a number of options. If they wield a double sword or other double weapon, they can take Power Attack and use all of the two handed fighting benefits when charging or fighting DR. And take all of the extra attacks when they are in a position to full attack. Using the extra attacks for special manuevers (especially trip and disarm) can help a lot too. They can also wield a one handed+a light weapon and two-hand the one-handed weapon when they want to penetrate DR. And power attack with it when charging.

TWF characters that don't have sneak attack (or can't use it) or energy weapons also can derive a lot of benefit from other weapons and feats:
Favored Enemy can make rangers going against a +10 favored enemy with TWF absolutely devastating.
Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon specialization are highly favorable to TWF characters.
Divine Might and Sacred Vengeance (CWH version) are highly favorable to TWF characters.
Energy weapons are favorable to TWF characters, but Aligned (Holy/Axiomatic/etc) weapons and especially wounding or bane weapons are even more favorable for such characters. (And since bane is a cheap enhancement, it's conceivable for a TWF character with lots of weapons to have a bane weapon for nearly every occasion).

WRT Sword and Board, I don't think it's an underpowered style at all. In 3.5, there are quite a few ways to make it effective:
0.5: Buckler and TWF--with Imp Buckler Defense (CW), this is nearly good as Light shield+one handed weapon but even without that feat, it is higly useful for a TWF character who changes weapons or who often has to tumble or charge to get an AC bonus whenever he can't make a full attack.
1. Heavy Shield and light weapon dual wield with Imp Shield Bash. (This method is favorable for feats like CW's Shield Charge)
2. Light Shield and One-handed weapon with Imp Shield Bash.
3. Tower Shield+One handed weapon
4. Straight up sword and board.
5. Option: Add combat Expertise to any above style.
6. Option: Add CW Elusive Target to any above style.
7. Option: Add CW Divine Shield to any above style

1 and 2 have most of the damage advantages of TWF combined with some of the AC advantage of a shield. They are not as defensively efficient as other builds since they have to spend money on enhancing both the defense and offense of their shield.
3 and 4 are more defensive builds. They have to focus their item choices towards defense or they will lose ground as attack bonusses increase but if they stay focussed, they can keep their AC high enough that many foes will have trouble damaging them.

Options 5 and 7 work very well because the higher a character's AC is, the more difference incremental improvements make. An AC 19 character can put four points of his BAB towards AC when facing a dire bear and maybe take 20% off the damage he takes. An AC 34 character who does the same thing takes more like 80% off the damage he takes.

Option 6 works well because one of the better benefits of Elusive Target works only when a target misses on a movement AoO. With a good AC and mobility that's almost a certainty.

 

[AeroDm]

Our situation is that we have two main fighters in the group. One is a Fighter 9/Rogue 3, who wields a powerful greatsword. It's a unique item, but I'd label it as a +2 flaming burst greatsword. He has a Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16. He wears full plate.

The other is a Ranger 11/Barbarian 1, who dual wields shortswords (actually she uses sickles because they look cooler, but I stat them as shortswords). She just has a pair of +1 sickles. She has Str 20, Dex 18, Con 16. She wears mithril chainmail.

Last night, as a test to see if the rules for TWF were broken, we had them spar against each other. The sickle wielder won by a margin of about 40 hit points. Six attacks per round versus 2, well, I can't say it was very surprising.

Wickett:
9 ftr (9 bab) 3 rog (2 bab) = 11 bab
Maybe part of the reason the two-hand character lost is because they only used 2 of their 3 attacks per round? Plus, a margin of 40 hp actually would prove that the styles are perfectly equal when you consider that your two characters have a 4 point con difference, and when the barbarian/ranger rages it becomes an 8 point con difference, leading towards 4 hp/level or 48 hit points. Equalizing the con scores would have equalized the battle.

On topic:
I haven't seen it play out in game, but on paper it looks impossible for twf to defeat DR, which is a really strong caveat against all of those 'armor as DR' systems floating around.

I was thinking that the fix could all be in power attack...
1) Two-handed fighters gain 1.5 per point reduction. This is in line with the strength bonus so it isn't a strange break from normality or anything.
2) Power Attack works with light weapons. I see no problem with this logically as I can imagine someone swinging a knife harder at the cost of accuracy.
3) Give TWF full benefit of power attack on each hand. If this is too strong, give them full on main and 1/2 on off-hand. Again, this would be in-line with the strength bonus.

On paper that looks like it would solve most problems. any experience of oversights?

 

[RisnDevil]

I think that you are correct in letting Power Attack work with one-handed and light weapons (I handed noticed that it did not, and will be hous ruling it such) would balance the gap.. My group has never really had a problem with TWF chars though, especially since most choose weapons that add dice of damage, which helps deal enough damage to not worry about DR (or so has been our experience). I think that most people's compaint though is that you have to invest so much more into a character that wants to wield two weapons than one that wants to be a big brute, and why should you? I know alot of players have real world experience in odd things, and have you ever tried to EFFECTIVELY wield two swords? IT'S HARD! I think it is a nice nod to realism....

 

[likuidice]

if power attack does not work with light weapons, does this effect cleave in any way, seeing as an inability to use a prerequisite negates the feats further along the chain?

 

[likuidice]

bah, found the answer, light weapons can still power attack, they just don't add damage, so they don't have any lame effect on cleave.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. I can't really contribute a lot to these discussions. When I am DMing, I'm the big rules honcho of the group since most of them are either dedicated roleplayers, Heros (that like to play the weakest char in the group and let him become a great hero) and newbies who didn't know the rules 3 years ago when I locked them into my cellar, opened some boxes of beer and a barrel of whiskey and got started...

So I always looked after the groups balance. Sword & Board types got a nice non magical sword with special material worked into the blade (boy he looked pleasantly surprised when he suddenly was able to hurt someone). The TWF dude was paladin with Divine Might and Divine Favor (Prayer spell from the cleric and bards song helped him out a lot... no problem here).

I think D&D 3.5 has a slight preferance for Twohanded weapon freaks as opposed to AD&D 2nd edition TWF for everyone rules. But it's not as bad as it could be.

Some fix proposals: Did you guys have a look at AU? No penalties to hit with TWF and later a feat that allows two one-handed weapons but not as many additional attacks (only two IIRC).

Last but not least: You're the DM. You know which DR your players can break and which not. Play the game.

 

[Hypersmurf]

bah, found the answer, light weapons can still power attack, they just don't add damage, so they don't have any lame effect on cleave.

Even if you couldn't use Power Attack with light weapons at all, you could still Cleave.

Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for Far Shot. That doesn't mean you can only use Far Shot within 30 feet.

-Hyp.