Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting

[ashockney]

Even if you couldn't use Power Attack with light weapons at all, you could still Cleave.

Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for Far Shot. That doesn't mean you can only use Far Shot within 30 feet.

-Hyp.

Ok, I think it's crystal clear at this point that we're generally agreed on a number of points.

1) There are stilll definite advantages built into all three weapon fighting styles. Part of making any of them work, involve some kind of investment in "complimentary" abilties.

2) Two weapon fighting seems to suffer a little from around 7th level to 14th level where Power Attack begins to shine, and DR begins to show up routinely in opponents.

The two weapon fighting advantage is when fighting against opponents without DR, particularly when accompanied by sneak attack, energy damage, divine favor, or favored enemy. The big deterrents include a -2/-2 penalty to attacks and a feat investment of up to four feats.

Here are some proposed fixes:

1) Allow power attack with light weapons. - issue: implications beyond two weapon fighting...not very realistic.
2) Remove the -2/-2 penalty to hit at some point. Issue- Is this enough?
3) Allow two wepaon fighters to use a second medium weapon in the off hand (would allow for power attack to overcome, slightly ramp up damage) - would this be enough, should this require additional investment?

I think where I'm at, I'm going to allow two and three to occur along with the investment of the 2nd and 3rd feats into two weapon fighting. Anyone come up with a cool third cool thing that TWF could get with their fourth attack?

 

[Hypersmurf]

3) Allow two wepaon fighters to use a second medium weapon in the off hand.

You already can.

-Hyp.

 

[Endur]

All you really need is an Adamantine weapon and power attack. An Adamantine weapon is useful for sundering and avoiding sundering and dealing with Golems.

Power Attack will let you get through the oddball DR's. Especially since you can swing your Adamantine weapon with two hands and power attack for a lot.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

MY experience suggests, at the very least, that allowing light weapons to benefit from power attack won't hurt much of anything. In 3.0, I played that way for several years and never saw any TWF character utilize power attack to become unreasonably powerful.

On paper that looks like it would solve most problems. any experience of oversights?

 

[jgsugden]

DR is supposed to be effective. 3.0 screwed that idea up by making it too easy to get past. You are supposed to have to work hard to get around DR. That is why the numbers are in the 5 to 15 range instead of 10 to 50 range - it is intended that most PCs will not be able to get past DR (with the exception of DR/magic).

Two weapon wielders have some advantages (more attacks, less 'overblow' damage wasted on a foe that would have died from only a few points of damage, etc ...) and some disadvantages (has trouble getting past DR, rarely gets massive damage bonuses, etc...) If you pick it as a fighting style, you have to take the good with the bad.

You might want to remind the PC that he can still use a two handed weapon. He won't get the benefit of all his feats, but he'll still be effective.

 

[jgsugden]

In 3.0, I played that way for several years and never saw any TWF character utilize power attack to become unreasonably powerful.

Never saw or never recognized? The power attack benefit for two weapon users in 3.0 was not obvious unless you really broke the numbers down. If you did, you'd see that the power attack was disproportionately helping 3.0 two weapon wielding fighter types. They were getting lots and lots of extra damage for relatively low cost. If you think the 3.0 PA version was balanced, I suggest digging up a few of the old threads on the subject (from when 3.5 came out) and going through them carefully before readopting the 3.0 rules. If you dig into the math, you'll see that it was very broken in effect, though it was hard to see that effect because it took place in such small steps.

 

[RangerWickett]

Off the top of my head, I'd do the following, and then playtest to see if it's over/underpowered, and at what levels and in which situations that happens.

• Two-handed Weapons stay completely as is, including -1 attack = +2 damage for power attack.
• Shields increases substantially in the AC benefit they grant, with bucklers being +1, small shields being +2, large shields being +4, and tower shields being +7.
• Two-weapon fighting has the basic penalties of -2/-6. If you take the TWF feat, it goes up to -0/-0. If you use a medium weapon off-hand, it becomes -2/-2 again.
• Make it harder for the dual-wielding whipping gnome ranger/shadowdancer in my party to trip six people in one round. I let him take a feat, Finesse Trip, that lets him use his Dex bonus instead of Strength bonus for tripping. He has a 20 Dex. His trip bonus is +5, since Improved Trip cancels out his small size penalty. Plus he has Combat Reflexes, so he hides in plain sight and takes AoOs to trip everyone who comes past him. Now that's broken.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Two-weapon fighting has the basic penalties of -2/-6. If you take the TWF feat, it goes up to -0/-0. If you use a medium weapon off-hand, it becomes -2/-2 again.

That would be basic penalties of -4/-8, reduced by 2 if the off-hand weapon is light, to be more consistent with the current system.

And you probably mean "one-handed weapon" rather than "medium weapon" anyway.

Make it harder for the dual-wielding whipping gnome ranger/shadowdancer in my party to trip six people in one round. I let him take a feat, Finesse Trip, that lets him use his Dex bonus instead of Strength bonus for tripping. Now that's broken.

I think I see the problem

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I can do the math as well as anyone else. (I was a major contributor in the 3.0 vs 3.5 threads--particularly the power attack ones so I am familiar with the math you're discussing). When I say that I never saw any TWF characters become unreasonably powerful due to power attack use, it is partially because I never saw any TWF characters become unreasonably powerful in any context and for any reason (other than being allowed to play an ECL-0 large minotaur who was 8th level in a party where everyone else was level 4-6).

The most that you (or the 3.5e designers) are able to assert is that allowing power attack to effect light weapons was disproportionately effective for TWF characters vis a vis THF characters. The complaint was that power attack is supposed to benefit the big brutes but didn't and it's not intended to benefit light weapon wielders but did. Those, however, are not game balance issues in a way that would make "broken" appropriate. (Nor would the disproportionate effect still be there if the rule were adopted in 3.5 since 2-h power attack works on a two for one basis).

Demonstrating brokenness is very different from merely demonstrating a disproportionate effect.

Never saw or never recognized? The power attack benefit for two weapon users in 3.0 was not obvious unless you really broke the numbers down. If you did, you'd see that the power attack was disproportionately helping 3.0 two weapon wielding fighter types. They were getting lots and lots of extra damage for relatively low cost. If you think the 3.0 PA version was balanced, I suggest digging up a few of the old threads on the subject (from when 3.5 came out) and going through them carefully before readopting the 3.0 rules. If you dig into the math, you'll see that it was very broken in effect, though it was hard to see that effect because it took place in such small steps.

 

[ashockney]

I think Ranger-Wickett's got it pretty close, although I'm not so sure where the shield adjustment came from?

I talked with my two-weapon fighting wielder tonight, and he said he thought that taking TWF down to -0/-0 instead of -2/-2 would get it done for him. He recognized the potential balance issues going too far if you made too many other changes. I'll probably give this for free with the Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat.