Chris_Nightwing
First Post
Fire
Cold
Electricity
Acid
Physical
Magical
(Mental later)
Anything but sonic..
Cold
Electricity
Acid
Physical
Magical
(Mental later)
Anything but sonic..
Damage Types: Developers read post 13
- Thread starter Sadrik
- Start date
GreatLemur
Explorer
This is something I've done some thinking on in the past, and I much prefer the concept of damage types to 3.x's somewhat silly "energy types" (Acid is energy? WTF?).
The list that I like is this: physical (possibly subdivided into cutting and bashing), electric, heat (which would include fire and light-based damage), cold (my preference is to include "darkness" or negative energy attacks here), and corrosive (which would be a slightly broad category of rare effects, including acid and magically-induced decay). Sonic attacks would do physical damage. Psychic attacks, poison, and disease make more sense to me as status effects and ability score damage (although maybe some non-lethal damage wouldn't be unreasonable).
The list that I like is this: physical (possibly subdivided into cutting and bashing), electric, heat (which would include fire and light-based damage), cold (my preference is to include "darkness" or negative energy attacks here), and corrosive (which would be a slightly broad category of rare effects, including acid and magically-induced decay). Sonic attacks would do physical damage. Psychic attacks, poison, and disease make more sense to me as status effects and ability score damage (although maybe some non-lethal damage wouldn't be unreasonable).
Is that music store code for "black damage"? Seriously, I need this one explained. Makes me think of Warcraft's nonsensical "nature damage", which is something done by both lightning and poison...Sammael said:
I like where you're going, here. Instead of status effects that inflict either/or states, we'd have various levels of incapacitation. I'd been thinking that the way to do this was by True20-style "if you fail your saving throw by 10 or more..." mechanics, but this could work, too.Sadrik said:
Last edited:
Sadrik
First Post
First of all there should be no untyped damages they should all fall under one of the six groups. Please: Wotc 4e developers read this.
Physical damage: weapons/force/earth/acid/falling --> (lethal)
Stun damage: stun/sonic/air/water/some weapons --> (non-lethal)
Internal damage: trauma/bleeding/poison/starvation/thirst/suffocation/energy drain --> (con damage)
Psychic damage: psychic/mental/mind --> (lethal)
Energy damage: fire/heat/lightning/desert/lava/radiation/sun/positive energy --> (lethal)
Cold damage: cold/negative energy/arctic/void/outer space --> (lethal)
Using these damage types and subtypes should inform on how armor/DR should interact against each damage type.
Physical damage: Armor/DR should reduce the effectiveness of it. Acid and force damage should be physical because in each one of these cases I can see armor/DR being effective at mitigating the damage. Acid- remember the movie Aliens when they jump in the elevator and they shoot the alien and it sprays acid on him and they have to take the armor off- that armor saved him. Force damage in various editions has this almost mythical super damage type quality- it ignores DR, it hits incorporeal, it is untyped. It should be physical damage and if you want to give force spell effects the ability to affect incorporeal creatures write it in the spell description but please get rid of DR not affecting physical-like objects made briefly out of a magical substance (MM, ring of ram etc)
Stun damage: Armor/DR should reduce the effectiveness of it. Stun damage should deal non-lethal damage which would knock someone out rather than kill them. Water and air damage I threw in because they sort of buffers you lightly but doesn't really smash you egregiously. There effects should be more like knock you over, "blown away" etc. Sonic damage should be like a wall slapping you. The best visual example of sonic damage I can think of is when an explosion goes off and there is a big push of air (sonic boom) and blasts people, knocking them back, over etc. Shrapnel kills in the explosion not the blast of air.
Internal damage: Ignores armor/DR and should be very difficult to guard against and be a very specific guard. Slow poison, stop bleeding, eat, drink, restoration, etc. Internal damage would primarily be CON damage but STR and DEX damage would also fall under Internal damage. STR damage would represent weakness and fatigue, Dex damage would represent, slowed and paralysis effects (hold person could be limited duration dex damage).
Psychic damage: since there are no mental HP in d&d you pretty much should include this as its own damage type. The best way to approach this is the opposite of Internal damage. Such that this could be done as WIS damage which would be like CON damage. But I dont think it works as well because WIS has more roles than just will, sanity and stability. If wisdom's other roles were moved out into the other mental stats this would make perfect sense, alas, it won't happen. So, HP is the next best thing when dealing with psychic damage. Psychic damage type I can see totally combined with the stun damage type, however, stun damage would be reduced by using armor/DR and I dont see psychic damage being reduced. To clearly define- telekinetic damage should be physical damage and telepathic damage should be psychic damage.
Energy and cold damage: should be damage types that ignore armor/DR but would have a host of spells that mitigate their effects. Examples protection from energy, protection from cold etc. Also, desert and arctic climates would do damage based on how cold or hot they were. This would also get rid of some of the very strange situations where a creature may have immunity to fire but still take damage from lightning. Last bit here- the concept of the difference between magical fire and non-magical fire should be done away with. Fire should be simply referred to by its magnitude- not hot fire and hot fire, which would equate to low damage and high damage.
Physical damage: weapons/force/earth/acid/falling --> (lethal)
Stun damage: stun/sonic/air/water/some weapons --> (non-lethal)
Internal damage: trauma/bleeding/poison/starvation/thirst/suffocation/energy drain --> (con damage)
Psychic damage: psychic/mental/mind --> (lethal)
Energy damage: fire/heat/lightning/desert/lava/radiation/sun/positive energy --> (lethal)
Cold damage: cold/negative energy/arctic/void/outer space --> (lethal)
Using these damage types and subtypes should inform on how armor/DR should interact against each damage type.
Physical damage: Armor/DR should reduce the effectiveness of it. Acid and force damage should be physical because in each one of these cases I can see armor/DR being effective at mitigating the damage. Acid- remember the movie Aliens when they jump in the elevator and they shoot the alien and it sprays acid on him and they have to take the armor off- that armor saved him. Force damage in various editions has this almost mythical super damage type quality- it ignores DR, it hits incorporeal, it is untyped. It should be physical damage and if you want to give force spell effects the ability to affect incorporeal creatures write it in the spell description but please get rid of DR not affecting physical-like objects made briefly out of a magical substance (MM, ring of ram etc)
Stun damage: Armor/DR should reduce the effectiveness of it. Stun damage should deal non-lethal damage which would knock someone out rather than kill them. Water and air damage I threw in because they sort of buffers you lightly but doesn't really smash you egregiously. There effects should be more like knock you over, "blown away" etc. Sonic damage should be like a wall slapping you. The best visual example of sonic damage I can think of is when an explosion goes off and there is a big push of air (sonic boom) and blasts people, knocking them back, over etc. Shrapnel kills in the explosion not the blast of air.
Internal damage: Ignores armor/DR and should be very difficult to guard against and be a very specific guard. Slow poison, stop bleeding, eat, drink, restoration, etc. Internal damage would primarily be CON damage but STR and DEX damage would also fall under Internal damage. STR damage would represent weakness and fatigue, Dex damage would represent, slowed and paralysis effects (hold person could be limited duration dex damage).
Psychic damage: since there are no mental HP in d&d you pretty much should include this as its own damage type. The best way to approach this is the opposite of Internal damage. Such that this could be done as WIS damage which would be like CON damage. But I dont think it works as well because WIS has more roles than just will, sanity and stability. If wisdom's other roles were moved out into the other mental stats this would make perfect sense, alas, it won't happen. So, HP is the next best thing when dealing with psychic damage. Psychic damage type I can see totally combined with the stun damage type, however, stun damage would be reduced by using armor/DR and I dont see psychic damage being reduced. To clearly define- telekinetic damage should be physical damage and telepathic damage should be psychic damage.
Energy and cold damage: should be damage types that ignore armor/DR but would have a host of spells that mitigate their effects. Examples protection from energy, protection from cold etc. Also, desert and arctic climates would do damage based on how cold or hot they were. This would also get rid of some of the very strange situations where a creature may have immunity to fire but still take damage from lightning. Last bit here- the concept of the difference between magical fire and non-magical fire should be done away with. Fire should be simply referred to by its magnitude- not hot fire and hot fire, which would equate to low damage and high damage.
JVisgaitis
Explorer
Sadrik said:
You do realize that 4e probably won't have armor as DR, right?
Badkarmaboy
First Post
Well put Sadrik, however, this:
The best visual example of sonic damage I can think of is when an explosion goes off and there is a big push of air (sonic boom) and blasts people, knocking them back, over etc. Shrapnel kills in the explosion not the blast of air.
is not entirely accurate. The overpreassure from a blast can and does kill people just as well as shrapnel. The concussive force causes internal injuries as well as cerebral damage.
I've treated several Soldiers struck by IEDs who's significant MOI (mechanism of injury) was blast concussion.
Based on that, I would make a case for "sonic" being lethal.
Other than that quibble, I like what you've got to say.
The best visual example of sonic damage I can think of is when an explosion goes off and there is a big push of air (sonic boom) and blasts people, knocking them back, over etc. Shrapnel kills in the explosion not the blast of air.
is not entirely accurate. The overpreassure from a blast can and does kill people just as well as shrapnel. The concussive force causes internal injuries as well as cerebral damage.
I've treated several Soldiers struck by IEDs who's significant MOI (mechanism of injury) was blast concussion.
Based on that, I would make a case for "sonic" being lethal.
Other than that quibble, I like what you've got to say.
Reaper Steve
Explorer
Badkarmaboy said:
The primary kill mechanism of a bomb (be it a iron-cased free fall munition or an IED) is frag. At close ranges, it doesn't matter...the guy catches both the frag and the blast. But the purpose of the blast is to spread the frag at lethal speeds, which travels much further than the blast effects. Therefore, there is no reason to give a bomb 'sonic' damage. Sure, a dude that is armored from the frag can still suffer the effects of the blast, but it's still physical damage.
Only a purpose-built non-lethal stunning weapon (like a concussion grenade) should consider its damage anything other than pure physical. (But I still wouldn't call it 'sonic.')
Credibility: By training and profession, I am an authority on these types of weapons.
Sadrik
First Post
Yes I realize that is why I listed it as armor/DR rather than just DR. Whatever mechanic they institute it should follow the same principal.JVisgaitis said:
Damage checks could wind up:
1d20 + STR + BAB + Size + Weapon Damage vs. 10 + CON + FORT bonus + Size + Armor Bonus
When armor gets ignored it would remove that last little tidbit (+ Armor Bonus)
Psychic Damage would go against WILL saves
Energy and Cold damage would go against REF saves
Physical and stun would go against FORT saves
Internal would likely go against FORT saves too but armor would not apply
Badkarmaboy
First Post
Reaper Steve said:
Agreed, nicely stated Reaper.
I was simply pointing out that concussive force can be lethal as well as non-lethal.
I wouldn't give a bomb sonic damage either.
I don't see a problem with a sonic damage type for spells/Su's or having said damage type deal lethal damage.
Sadrik
First Post
Yeah you guys both explained that well. In D&D there is a sonic damage type, explaining it can be kind of weird. I personally like to think of it like a sonic boom. Which in my mind barring complications is most likely non-lethal damage, like somebody beating you up. Somebody can beat you up really good and you can die from it but most likely they'll just wipe the floor with you and you will make it out alive.Badkarmaboy said:
Wow that sounds funny. Same thing for sonic damage in my mind. Different than a sword blow or shrapnel or fire or whatever.Similar Threads
