Damaging Allies in Combat - Is it acceptable?

[Kwalish Kid]

Speaking of damaging allies, you (all) are damaging the thread.

Sho 'nuff. But I think that Holy Bovine is testy because he's got to miss our game this weekend. And they will need that defender.

I think I should point out that in our game, the first big PC damaging hit came about because the Wizard didn't know his spell well enough and sent an acid arrow at a solo surrounded by other PCs. That was truly dumb and it did make me worry about a TPK.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

What do you think?

I like the ideas, both the implement thing in general and the idea of a specific item set.

 

[Stalker0]

My group is generally good with it in certain circumstances. If you will hit a lot of enemies and I've got good health then let it ride. Also in one game the fighter got a fire resistant item and the wizard took war wizardry, so basically he can scorching burst the fighter all day long without issue.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I think intent is important...

If your Wizard is blasting an ally with an area effect spell and he doesn't care, that could be a problem. If it is an accident (not measured out properly and the ally happened to get caught in the blast), that is something else. Also, if your ally doesn't care if he you fire off an AE spell where he *may* be hit, that is also something different.

In an old 3e game, we had a Rogue that had an awesome Reflex save plus Evasion. The Wizard would often blast the area he was in with Fireballs, and the Rogue player was OK with that (he knew the attack was coming and he was prepared for it; ie party planning). He had a decent chance of evading the attack, but he knew it wasn't a 100% guarantee. But it was planned between the two, that is the important thing.

We've also played where you can't count or measure out square-by-square. The player has to pick a center point for their AE spells and hope that the ally is not withing the AE. And if the ally was, and they got hit, they knew it was not intentional. This too I find is acceptable.

 

[Turtlejay]

Blame? In a system where there is a high amount of movement, you can hardly blame a melee character for not being in the precise right position so that your lazy ranged striker/controller can get maximum benefit.

Not only that, but the blame falls solely on the attacker for not communicating their pre-planned strategy to blast a certain area.

I play a pursuit avenger in a weekly game with a dwarven blasting wizard. The player has asked me a couple of times to avoid a certain area so they can blast it come their turn and I have happily done so. This is teamwork. This is how adults communicate. This is how everyone can benefit.

I agree with this, minus the snarky overtones.

As I said in my earlier post, some PC's might be more okay with it than others, but if you are planning on throwing out some area affects or zones, give your allies a round or so to plan for it. This goes for beneficial zones, too. Last session I played the Cleric let us know she was going to unleash a nice healing area effect, and we were able to get most of the party inside the zone to benefit from it. This is how it should work for *fireballs* too. Let everyone know you want to throw one down if possible, so the fighter doesn't Tempest Dance his way into the middle and either ruin your plans, or get blasted.

Jay

 

[Jhaelen]

In an old 3e game, we had a Rogue that had an awesome Reflex save plus Evasion.

Yup, in our 3e game it's typically the rogue player that is suggesting to centre a blast on his character.

Then, there's the situations, where he's hidden and the blasters simply don't know where he currently is...

 

[Prestidigitalis]

As I said in my earlier post, some PC's might be more okay with it than others, but if you are planning on throwing out some area affects or zones, give your allies a round or so to plan for it.

The problem I have with this concept is that if you take AoE spells away from the Wizard or Sorcerer, they don't have much left that is worth taking. So here is my Wizard or Sorcerer character talking: "Just so you know -- I will be throwing out area effects and zones EVERY SINGLE ROUND. If you don't want to get hit, don't get caught in the middle of a bunch of bad guys. Stay on the fringes until we whittle them down to a manageable number."

I know this will be controversial, but seriously, the difference in power between AoE and non-AoE spells is huge.

Final note: No, I haven't actually done this yet. I'm speaking theoretically of what I expect to happen if I ever get a chance to play an AoE-oriented character.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm curious on people's takes on this. Is it justified to attack your allies as part of an attack in order to maximize effectiveness of powers?

The LFR has a rule about this. Ask the player of the affected character; if they grant their permission then you can use the power so that they are in the area of effect. If they say no then you either have to either aim it differently or use a different power so that they are not targeted by your attack powers.

That settles the courtesy aspect, and prevents Zeppo the Morron and his blaster wizard from actively killing other PCs (intentionally or not).


Having played on both sides of this question, I say go for it if it's the best option around. Ask, of course (no need to be rude to your fellow gamers) but go for it if it is the best option.
Attacks that inflict conditions are never the best option when PCs are in the area. Not Ever.

When possible, explain the area you're going to target before / during your allies' turns so they can stay out, and possibly maneuver more targets into the area. Sometimes (hidden enemies, teleporting enemies, etc.) that's not possible and you'll probably be singeing your team. But better they take 8 damage from you than 6 damage from each of 6 minions (36 total). Just try to apologize to them, in character, after the fight.

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem I have with this concept is that if you take AoE spells away from the Wizard or Sorcerer, they don't have much left that is worth taking. So here is my Wizard or Sorcerer character talking: "Just so you know -- I will be throwing out area effects and zones EVERY SINGLE ROUND. If you don't want to get hit, don't get caught in the middle of a bunch of bad guys. Stay on the fringes until we whittle them down to a manageable number."

I know this will be controversial, but seriously, the difference in power between AoE and non-AoE spells is huge.

Counterpoint: You have a character that is based around AoE spells. Learning how to use them effectively in a group means more than simply counting enemies targetted--it also includes knowing when, and when NOT, to use that blast in that particular spot.

'It's powerful' is as much an argument -against- hitting your team as it is an argument -for- hitting your team. I -KNOW- they are powerful, that's why I do not enjoy being hit by them all the time.

But, yes, having a melee team create a shield wall that forces the enemies to gather in an easy front line is a good way to coordinate with a wizard PC. This isn't always feasible, however, Avengers and Rogues often move out of those positions to milk flanking/oath of emnity. Of course, when the enemy has an AoE, that's a different story....

Final note: No, I haven't actually done this yet. I'm speaking theoretically of what I expect to happen if I ever get a chance to play an AoE-oriented character.

Thing is... 'I have an ability' is not justification for using an ability poorly. It is one tool. You should wisely choose other tools. A wizard, for example, should probably have an AoE at-will, and would be well served with a single target at-will as well, just in case they are in a situation where AoE damage does more harm through collateral damage than good through enemy attrition.

Humans, of course, can simply go 'I'll take Fireball Lite, Shoveywave, and Cloud of Stab for the win'.



Of course, if I'm immune to the effects of that AoE, then hitting me or not hitting me is a non-issue. I'm not going to get angry that you hit me with something that cannot harm me, in this sort of genre. I'd encourage it as a tactic because I -know- it is a safe tactic to do. This is a corner case, however, and doesn't really count as hitting your own team.

CORROLARY: Resist Thunder is actually starting to look quite decent because of the above and Thunderwave.

SECOND CORROLARY: If I'm surrounded by a crap ton of minions, and I didn't open the combat with something like 'After you, Mister Wizard sir' rather than charge at unknown enemy A, then I was the tactical blunder. This is the point where charging in is dumb, as a well placed AoE is -exactly- the right diplomatic greeting for these fine ambassadors of peace.

 

[lukelightning]

I like to let the defender (or whomever is being surrounded by enemies) suggest it. That seems so much more heroic... "wizard, center your blast on me...NOW!"