Dammit, Warlord, Warlock, Tiefling, and Dragonborn are growing on me.

Gloombunny said:
What makes me happy with dragonborn is that wings and breath weapons are available to them at high levels, but not mandatory. I love lizardmen, and I'm cool with lizardmen who sometimes develop dragon traits, because I think of dragons as just overdeveloped lizards anyway.

Boingk!

That just gave me an idea for incorporating dragonborn into a campaign...

Dragonborn are simply very young dragons that have not yet reached full adulthood... At higher levels, once they gain a breath weapon and wings, they have finally reached adolescence and begin molting into a form that can continue growing into a true, adult dragon.


Hrm... I'll think more about that.
 

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Wormwood said:
Because some people see Dragonborn and immediately latch on to races they are superficially similar to. So you have comparisons to lizardfolk and kobolds and draconians and dragons and whatever. At this point, the Dragonborn are little more than thematic Rorschach tests.

True enough, I suppose. I hope you're right. Alternatively, having failed to learn from the history of the prior editions, we could just end up repeating it with the Dragonborn.
 

Pbartender said:
Boingk!

That just gave me an idea for incorporating dragonborn into a campaign...

Dragonborn are simply very young dragons that have not yet reached full adulthood... At higher levels, once they gain a breath weapon and wings, they have finally reached adolescence and begin molting into a form that can continue growing into a true, adult dragon.


Hrm... I'll think more about that.

That's what I'm talking about. That's something that I could role play. It unfortunately won't be core, given the whole ancient empire stuff. OTOH, an empire run by essentially children and teen agers might be neat. Sort of like Children of the Corn, with teeth and claws.
 

Gloombunny said:
I love lizardmen, and I'm cool with lizardmen who sometimes develop dragon traits, because I think of dragons as just overdeveloped lizards anyway.

Okay. Tell me why you love lizardmen, Gloombunny. That's what I want to learn, maybe it will help me figure out the all the love for this set of creatures.

(In biology's taxonomy, what would this set of creatures be? A genus? an order? a family?)
 

GreatLemur said:
How can someone who knows Warhammer think that piercings and punkery are wussy?

6oosfnd.jpg

An excellent point, GreatLemur. Allow me to elaborate.

In Warhammer, characters pierce and punk out of raw, savage anger. They defile their flesh with iron rings, they cut their hair into bizarre patterns that eschew the conventions of civilized society. They kick ass.

In D&D 3.x, characters get piercings because it makes them look sexy. They style their hair in spikey cuts because it makes them look fashionable.

Warhammer, piercings and punk are HARDCORE.

D&D 3.x, piercings and punk are WANNABE.

;)
 

roguerouge said:
Also helpful would be to hear from players or DMs who've created living cultures based in the lizard races/classes.

In my homebrew ...

Half-Dragons exist in decent numbers due to a war with a dragon empire.

Draconic humanoids exist as decedents of previous Half-Dragons.

Dragonkin are the elite soldiers/nobles of the Dragon Empire, created from loyal Lizardfolk champions.

Lizardfolk are the trusted servants of Dragonkind and server as the Middle/warrior class in the empire. Lizardfolk "bond" to their dragon masters and molt(?) their scales to take on the color of their dragon master.

Kobolds are the lowest caste of dragonkind and server as the slaves/labor force of the empire. They have an instinctive need to serve a creature of Draconic blood.

Troglodytes are Lizardfolk who have rejected the rule of their dragon masters and have been caste out of the Dragon Empire.
 

roguerouge said:
That's what I'm talking about. That's something that I could role play. It unfortunately won't be core, given the whole ancient empire stuff. OTOH, an empire run by essentially children and teen agers might be neat. Sort of like Children of the Corn, with teeth and claws.

Consider the following...

I'm certain exactly how long dragonborn are supposed to live, but, for instance, compare a typical human's life span to that of a typical dragon. A dragonborn (using a human's lifespan) who has to earn his wings and breath through "the experience of trial by fire" -- adventuring, that is to say -- will likely gain those benefits sometime in his late 20's to early 30's. Even those who take a safer appraoch to gaining the requisite experience will have to gain to traits by the time they're 70+ or risk dying of old age as an immature dragonborn, rather than living for centuries as a true dragon.

That does two things...

First, it completely bypasses the youngest three or four age categories of dragons, ensuring that true dragons you do run into are exceptionally powerful. Not only would true dragons start straight off as a juvenile or young adult, but they would also by default (unless you included some sort of fundamental mental change as a part of the molt) have all the class levels accumulated as an "adolescent" dragonborn.

Second, it allows you to keep dragonborn as a modestly common race, with all the ancient empires that may entail, while still keeping dragons relatively few and far between. The limiting factors being: A) As with any race, few will ever take up adventuring the only pratical way to quickly gain the required experience. B) Even amongst those who adventure, fewer will survive until the higher levels needed to gain those feats. C) Not all those dragonborn who gain enough experience may choose those feats and become a dragon.

In other words... Dragonborn are to dragons what tadpoles are to frogs.

:D
 

Shortman McLeod said:
Warhammer, piercings and punk are HARDCORE.

D&D 3.x, piercings and punk are WANNABE.

;)

Just to be absolutely clear about this...

Warhammer, piercings and punk:
PunkMohawk.jpg


D&D 3.x, piercings and punk:
emokid.jpg


;)
 

Aristotle said:
...but dragonborn just wreak of the old "dragons are cool! lets make all kinds of draconic races and creatures!" attitude. I think it dilutes the dragon, and makes it less impressive when you finally meet one.
That's easily my favorite part about the dragonborn. Dragons are concentrated nerdlove, and so much of it falls flat its face in my eyes. Seeing dragons used is a lot like seeing an 8 year old describe what kind of superhero he wants to be -- he'll have the powers of every X-Man he can think of, be the smartest man alive, and everyone will shudder with awesome whenever they're in his presence.

I think the best example of this is in the first Dragonlance novel. The dragons are already wise, arrogant, old sages that are borderline unstoppable (except by other dragons, of course). Then, in case you're not convinced how totally sweet they are yet, they put forth that dragons have two names, one which mere mortals address them by, and one which only other dragons know. Ugh. Already stupid. This is described during the introduction of one of the dragons, whose names are "Ember" and "Pyros." <Facepalm> It's akin to declaring "My name is Will, but to those of the inner circle, I am known secretly as.... Bill."

It's my hope that the sheer abundance of dragonborn will reduce the amount that the DM expects me to crap myself when I have the audacity to not prostrate myself before his scaly avatar.

Also, the Warhammer Online Trailer is awesome. Watch it.
 

Derren said:
You will have a hard time by figuring out what motivates humans by observing monkeys...
Arguments could be made against that assertion.

But yeah. Dragonborn can pretty much be expected to have the same motivations as every other intelligent species. The thing we're waiting to see, though, it their culture, the lens through which all those motivations will work. Can't say I'm particularly worried, though. I generally expect to recreate stuff like that, anyway.
 

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