Dammnation

[Jürgen Hubert]

In your standard D&D cosmology you actually have a very monotheistic kind of set-up where the righteous go to one of the various heavens and the wicked go to the hell of your choice to serve as fuel and demon chow.

So what is it exactly that the dark gods offer that lures people into following them? It's not like evil clerics get more power or cheaper XP than good ones do.

"I won't be one of those suckers who will end up as demon chow! I'm brilliant and powerful - I deserve a position of authority in Hell!"

A very few of these people will actually make it - but far more will die in the belief that they do.


There are some parallels to this in real life. In Freakonomics, there is a fascinating study how joining a gang is a similar sucker's game - the boss makes all the money, yet all the gang members likewise join up because they believe they will make it big. And that despite the fact that they would earn more at a minimum wage job than they earn with their illegal activities!

 

[gizmo33]

So what is it exactly that the dark gods offer that lures people into following them? It's not like evil clerics get more power or cheaper XP than good ones do.

Who says? How do you know that all of the magic items in the campaign world aren't restricted to being used only by followers of Demogorgon? And how would an NPC know what a 20th level cleric gets without having a copy of the Player's Handbook? AFAICT you're assuming that the NPCs have access to the same meta-gaming information that the players do. Some farmer somewhere, thinking about joining the cult of Demogorgon, flips open the PHB and reads up on the rituals to figure out that the cult leaders are lying? Or does he wait for the new Divine Powers sourcebook to come out?

 

[Barastrondo]

I look at it kind of like this: We have about as much reason to believe that eating in moderation, eschewing junk food, and getting regular exercise will make us healthier as the average person in a fantasy RPG has reason to believe that a life of virtue will be rewarded in the long term. Similarly, we have lots of reasons to believe that reducing consumption and making personal sacrifices will improve the lot of humanity as a whole. But people are excellent at finding reasons or rationalizations to eat a cheeseburger instead of a salad, to watch TV instead of going jogging, to buy the cheap stuff instead of the more environmentally responsible stuff.

That's why even those evil gods whose afterlives are hells in some way or another can recruit. Because people are people. Some of them might "know" that a terrible fate may await them upon death or failure and just figure they can game the system, or not think about it. Some of them were probably never told. ("Our research shows that tobacco does not significantly increase the odds of cancer, er, I mean, engaging in the orgiastic murder-rites of Lady Hedonia does not significantly increase the odds of eternal torment.") Some have complicated plans to avoid such a fate, and others rationalize that the downside is probably overblown. We're human beings. There are enough of us who are awesome at doing stuff that's bad for us that most evil religions with at least a halfway decent offer of worldly delights, power or revenge won't have problems recruiting.

 

[jdrakeh]

You want power from Torm? Ok, just be forthright and true in all that you do. Be noble and bold and dutiful. Sacrifice, work hard, and defend the weak. Failing to act nobly will result in loss of your spells.

You want power from Mask? Go steal stuff. Failure to steal stuff will result in loss of your spells.

You want power from Gruumsh? Go kill, loot and pillage. If others have things you want, just take them.

And so on.

Magic only works that way for Paladins. Clerical magic doesn't work that way. Clerics just have to say that they're a cleric and *poof* they get magic — and, to top it off, all of the clerics in the known world get the same magic with only minor variations (regardless of what god they worship). Further, you can learn powerful magics (arguably more powerful magics) in D&D without worshipping a god. This is what I alluded to above.

Evil gods, by default, certainly don't entice worshippers with spells — or, if they do, it's a pretty crappy enticement because the same magic or more powerful magic is available in many different places per the rules of the game. This is, also, I think what Andor alluded to. I've always been willing to suspend my disbelief in the face of the fact that demons supposedly entice people with spells that are widely available elsewhere and through less dangerous avenues, but I can see that being an issue for some people.

 

[gizmo33]

Evil gods, by default, certainly don't entice worshippers with spells — or, if they do, it's a pretty crappy enticement because the same magic or more powerful magic is available in many different places per the rules of the game.

There are no rules in DnD for growing wheat or milking cows. Therefore, according to your logic, NPCs don't eat anything.

IMO the rulebooks contain a rather minimalist set of player-oriented rules for adventuring. There's no reason to assume that a demon can't blip in and perform a ritual that converts a low-level NPC into a high level cleric. Even in pre-4th edition versions of the game, I think it is highly unlikely that every high level character ruling a kingdom had a career as violent/crazy as a PC of equivalent level. IMO it seems pretty clear, in all versions of the game, that the PC rules discussed by the rulebooks did not encapsulate all of the reality of the campaign world.

And again, this is making a huge, and unwarranted, assumption that the NPCs have accurate information about the rules governing the setting. I don't think they would any more than people IRL.

 

[Andor]

A lot of good replies in this thread. The 'Abusive relationship' idea was particularly insightfull.

It's interesting to me how many of the answers boiled down to 'because they are crazy'. Or at least ignorant.

 

[jdrakeh]

There are no rules in DnD for growing wheat or milking cows. Therefore, according to your logic, NPCs don't eat anything.

Er, no? I'm talking about rules that do exist and do set up a very specific worldview of magic in the context of most published D&D settings (the two exceptions being Dark Sun and Birthright). I am not talking about rules that don't exist.

My argument was not that since rules for X don't exist, X is not in the game. My argument was that since there are very specific rules for Y in the game, Y exists in the game and functions according the very specific rules for it.

There is a huge difference between what I actually argued and the argument that you're trying to attribute to me.

 

[Scribble]

So what is it exactly that the dark gods offer that lures people into following them? It's not like evil clerics get more power or cheaper XP than good ones do.

Like minded philosophies is how I see it.

Take people who decide upon a life of crime. Sure they might know it's not what many or most would consider the "right" way to do things, but maybe they figure those people are schmucks who do things the hard way instead of just smashin the weaker guy and takin his money.

Sure, it COULD lead to a bad place for him, but that's something he'll deal with then. Until that time, the potential rewards are enough of a carrot.

 

[gizmo33]

There is a huge difference between what I actually argued and the argument that you're trying to attribute to me.

You weren't making this case, but I don't see the difference. The question of what an NPC demon has to offer an NPC cultist is not clearly answered by the rules IMO although you argue strongly that it is. I just don't see it.

 

[roguerouge]

A lot of good replies in this thread. The 'Abusive relationship' idea was particularly insightfull.

It's interesting to me how many of the answers boiled down to 'because they are crazy'. Or at least ignorant.

Yay! Is it good enough for XP?