Dark Alleys Are Still Safe?

I notice that dim light still defeats sneak attack by providing concealment. Thus, on a moonlit night, rogues are still out of luck. I peaked at Perception and noticed you can generate a DC for a move action to "perceive" something but it doesn't actually give provisions for thusly removing concealment.

Allow me to offer anecdotal evidence to support Pathfinder rules:
- quoting PFRPG: Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
- whenever I take a walk in the area which meets such definition, I see stark opposites of light and darkness. Shapes are easy to differerentiate from, however it's easy for two shapes of the same type (light shapes, dark shapes) to merge into one. In other words, while edges are easy to detect, specific points are usually very difficult to pick.

Under such conditions, it's easy to merge with surroundings by standing still or by passing through area of shadow. Hence, "dim light", "concealment" and no sneak attack.
I would rule though, that a rogue who took precaution to position themselves in such a way as to secure clear view of the target, would be able to use Sneak Attack as long as the tactical advantage was maintained (for example, making sure that the target was seen clearly against brighter spot).

It may be not much, however I do not feel it's difficult to adjudicate.

Regards,
Ruemere
 

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No, I would not use a rule because it is the rule. That is exactly the opposite of my viewpoint. I would like a rule that follows from logic. The question is only, "What is the rule?" A well-designed RPG describes many general cases, from which special cases can be judged. Sometimes the general rule does not agree very well with reality. In other cases, it works fine but certain special cases raise eyebrows.

Actually, you may be surprised, I absolutely agree with this. It seems that this discussion has tended to consider the effect of GM making a ruling or "hand-waving" without carefully deciding what this means.

To me "hand-waving" is a non-technically based explanation of something that avoids careful consideration. That's a GM arbitration that links to our unserstanding of arbitrary.

Or- it may be a quick decision that keeps the story rolling. That's another reason for the background of a decision.

I would hope to see a considered decision (what I'd call a ruling) that arises from the details of the rules so, as you say, "A well-designed RPG describes many general cases, from which special cases can be judged."


I cannot empirically test whether someone gets sneak attack dice in a dark alley. I have no way of knowing who is a rogue in real life, nor do I have a way of measuring how much damage they do or what level the victim is. I also lack convenient murder victims to perform tests on.

Really? That's why I said that I'd expect rulings to consider that genre tropes (as well as the general cases of the rules).


I thought it was clear from the OP that I was interested in talking about how the rules do not allow it, and the conversation has turned to some approaches and fixes.

Actually, I thought the OP was a snide nitpick that these rules are still broken as you did not offer or ask for suggestions. I guess that's why I looked for general comments on how to resolve such problems.


Second of all, you are speaking to me as if I were a novice, which I am not. I have been roleplaying for 25 years. I am a former columnist at RPG.net and I have RPG writing credits.

Well, good for you. I'm not sure what help you think this is to the discussion. I am supposed to defer to your wisdom given this?

In a show not tell way, however, you reference to the Oberoni fallacy was very interesting for me and certainly does show your expertise in game rule philosophy.

To imply that I simply need to wake up and realize that the rules do not cover all situations is pretty condescending.

Sorry. I didn't mean to patronise. I've been roleplaying for 31 years and have been a professional physicist for 23 years. It's the physics that makes me all to aware of the limits rules/laws/models.

Obviously, you do not know my personal background, but you do not know a lot of people's backgrounds and you are making a big assumption by thinking others need to "see the light."

I honestly believe that people can play the game in whatever may makes them happy as long as they do so with consenting adults of equal persuasion. I apologise if my tone faltered at the end of my previous post: an urge for rhetoric overcame my better sense. I thank you for your comments to me - they have been helpful.
 

I disagree. If your target has enough concealment that you have a 20% chance of you missing them altogether, the ability to intentionally strike specific points is out of the question.

To me it is obvious.

That is why I want to bring the dim light issue into the foreground. I know that by moonlight, I can see someone well enough to have a conversation with them. I can reliably kiss my partner on the mouth without a 20% miss chance. I can change a diaper in the dark without a 20% miss chance.

It seems to me that when a character is able to take time and care to do something, the penalties for dim light are overly punitive. If I sneak up on a sleeping victim in the dark, I can certainly sneak attack them. If I was able to use Stealth to get right behind a victim in a dark alley, I think I could aim for a vital spot, as well.

So requiring a move action to aim versus concealment would represent taking about 3 seconds to line up the attack.
 

Actually, I thought the OP was a snide nitpick that these rules are still broken as you did not offer or ask for suggestions. I guess that's why I looked for general comments on how to resolve such problems.

Hmph. Well, if I had all the answers, I wouldn't bother starting a thread. Thank you for clarifying.
 

That is why I want to bring the dim light issue into the foreground. I know that by moonlight, I can see someone well enough to have a conversation with them. I can reliably kiss my partner on the mouth without a 20% miss chance. I can change a diaper in the dark without a 20% miss chance.

Wet diaper or full of poop? Can you be sure you have the baby all clean and wiped up with a poop-filled diaper in the dark?
Ever collide noses a little bit? Get an off-center kiss? But then, kissing usually involves two people working together to be accurate - not like a sneak attack at all (where the target is usually trying to NOT get a short sword in the kidney).
 

Wet diaper or full of poop? Can you be sure you have the baby all clean and wiped up with a poop-filled diaper in the dark?

In dim light? Sure. And changing a diaper is a lot more difficult than stabbing someone once.

Ever collide noses a little bit? Get an off-center kiss? But then, kissing usually involves two people working together to be accurate - not like a sneak attack at all (where the target is usually trying to NOT get a short sword in the kidney).

Kissing can be a lot like sneak attacking a sleeping target.
 

That is why I want to bring the dim light issue into the foreground. I know that by moonlight, I can see someone well enough to have a conversation with them. I can reliably kiss my partner on the mouth without a 20% miss chance. I can change a diaper in the dark without a 20% miss chance.

I agree that moonlight is a good borderline test case for normal/dim.

I think that if I were starting from scratch I might define normal light as a level of illumination where you can read written text without a problem. This would cover various levels of both indoor and outdoor illumination down to bright moonlight when you eyes have adjusted. (And bright light would be when white pages are to bright and painful to read w/o shades- does everyone get this effect or just me?)

However, for perfectly sensible reasons the rules define bright/dim compared to a clear centre of illumination (a torch). But, looking into/away from a light source is very different being in a steady condition of low level lighting.

I'm simply not conversant enough with the rules to suggest how to model this. However, a wait or spend-a-move action to allow some compensation for adjustment to the prevailing lighting seems good to me - for a constant low (dim) light.
 


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