dark sun: carnage weapon

[Mengu]

Very true - although carnage could come into play much earlier; it's not unreasonable for a level 21 character to have a level 23 weapon, and you're talking about a +10 to damage 60% of the time. But vorpal's exploding dice would likely still outpace it in the end.

When you say +10, it's a bit misleading. You're always getting +5 of it anyway. So it's more like +5. And multiplying that by the 60% chance, you are looking at +3 extra average damage on a hit. Multiply that by say a 70% hit chance, it amounts to a little over +2 DPR.

I'll agree though that at epic level, if you have the right kind of weapon with multiple damage dice, it's a good pick.

 

[evilbob]

Actually I meant +10 on top of the +5 you'd be getting anyway. It's a +5 enhancement bonus... and then 60% of the time, you're adding 2x enhancement bonus on top. So +5 minimum, +15 60% of the time. That's more like +11ish on average? And hit chance can really be taken out of the equation, unless you're comparing a specific weapon's proficiency bonus with another: the hit chance will be the same.

So when comparing this weapon property to another at level 21 with a +5 enhancement bonus on a 2d6 brutal 1 weapon, this weapon property does an average +6 damage higher - unless my math is wrong, which it certainly could be.


In the end, after more reflection, it seems like this is just another very good weapon property and not necessarily a crazy broken one. It's strictly better than vicious (since it has the same crit dice), and particularly good with an item like gauntlets of destruction (effectively they give brutal 1). It's also even more powerful compared to radiant than I thought, since radiant gives an item bonus to damage and this is an untyped bonus. That means you can use it with armbands of power, unlike radiant weapons.

However, it's only at its most powerful when used with a very small set of weapons: axes, heavy blades, and maces that use two dice for damage. Currently, that's falchion, glaive, greatclub (all 2d4s), and the new Dark Sun weapon gouge, which is a 2d6 brutal 1 axe - and clearly tailor-made for this property. Nothing else applies (yet), so I think it's not quite as bad as another bloodclaw.

 

[Mengu]

Actually I meant +10 on top of the +5 you'd be getting anyway. It's a +5 enhancement bonus... and then 60% of the time, you're adding 2x enhancement bonus on top.

Wait what? Can you give the exact feat? When you said twice the enhancement bonus, I figured that meant twice as opposed to just adding it once. Is this not the case?

Edit: Never mind, found it elsewhere.

Property: When you roll the maximum result on at least one of this weapon’s damage dice, the target takes extra damage equal to twice the weapon’s enhancement bonus

That's much better than I originally thought. Fixed the numbers above accordingly.

 

[evilbob]

Correct.

I guess you could also include the actual enhancement bonus as well in your chart, if you wanted to make it complete - and maybe even include "carnage vs. non-carnage" to be extra clear. So a 2d4 with no enhancement is avg 5, and a +1 2d4 weapon avg damage is 6, but a +1 carnage 2d4 weapon is 6.89. A +5 2d4 weapon is avg 10, and a +5 carnage 2d4 weapon is avg. ~16. (16.38?) That would make comparisons much clearer.

 

[Mengu]

I guess you could also include the actual enhancement bonus as well in your chart, if you wanted to make it complete - and maybe even include "carnage vs. non-carnage" to be extra clear. So a 2d4 with no enhancement is avg 5, and a +1 2d4 weapon avg damage is 6, but a +1 carnage 2d4 weapon is 6.89. A +5 2d4 weapon is avg 10, and a +5 carnage 2d4 weapon is avg. ~16. (16.38?) That would make comparisons much clearer.

The 0 enchantment line *is* the non-carnage version. Every other modifier (enhancement, stat, item bonus, etc) will be added in equal amounts to each average, and would only complicate the table.

Right now, the values tell you exactly how much of an improvement you're getting over the non-carnage weapon. If you look at 2d6(b1) with a +4 weapon, and you can easily note the average damage goes from an 8 to a 10.88.

 

[evilbob]

Right - except it's going from a 12 to a 14.88. But yeah, it's hardly necessary.