D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[GSHamster]

I think Dark Sun works better without Preservers. All magic defiles, period.

Preservers were a cop-out so people could still play mages and not have to grapple with the consequences of defiling magic. They watered down the setting from "every mage hurts the world" to "only evil mages hurt the world".

 

[Eltab]

While I like "regular Wizard = Defiler, Wizard + penalty = Preserver", zoom out a bit to consider:
"Wizard = Preserver, Sorcerer = Defiler" and both classes share one spell list. A sorcerer cannot decide to not defile and cannot disguise his use of arcane power. Perhaps tie this into sorcery points.
A Wizard OTOH can do both but loses something for it. A different option from those discussed above would be "a spell cast as Preserving requires a slot one level higher" -or- "...requires two spell slots of its level".

 

[Aldarc]

I think Dark Sun works better without Preservers. All magic defiles, period.

Preservers were a cop-out so people could still play mages and not have to grapple with the consequences of defiling magic. They watered down the setting from "every mage hurts the world" to "only evil mages hurt the world".

Agreed. PC mages are kinda antithetical to the sword & sorcery vibe of the setting.

 

[bulletmeat]

Agreed. PC mages are kinda antithetical to the sword & sorcery vibe of the setting.

You could look at Low-Fantasy Gaming's use of magic. Darker & dangerous with a count down to trouble vs luck:

 

[Charlaquin]

I think Dark Sun works better without Preservers. All magic defiles, period.

Preservers were a cop-out so people could still play mages and not have to grapple with the consequences of defiling magic. They watered down the setting from "every mage hurts the world" to "only evil mages hurt the world".

I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think that removing preservers entirely would really resolve the “only evil mages hurt the world” problem, it would just slap “and every mage is evil” on top of it. If you keep preserving as an option but make it come at a cost, you go from “every mage is evil” to “being good as a mage requires sacrifice.” It gives mage players a whole lot of rope and says “good luck trying not to hang yourself with this.”

 

[cbwjm]

When I was brainstorming ideas for defiling I looked at the wizard's arcane recovery power. Preserving magic uses it as normal and it helps represent drawing magic from the environment. Preservers use it normally but every wizard knows that they can take that energy much faster when they need to. By defiling, a wizard gains access to arcane recovery instantly. Need an extra 3rd-level spell slot for a fireball? A 5th level wizard can defile and instantly draw on that energy, destroying plant life around them to do it.

I think i had feats that also helped support the theme with master preserver allowing you to recover more spell slots on a short rest and locking you out of master defiler (I can't remember what that one did).

 

[ChaosOS]

Arcane Recovery is good. I will baseline say I think if we're keeping Preserver, that should be the base wizard and then Defiler should be an option that is an upgrade with both an environmental/RP cost and some mechanical cost, probably in the form of hit dice. While at first I was thinking the benefit should be "spell is treated as upcast a level", doing a specific benefit per class that's related to spell recovery seems more interesting.

Why make Defiling an "upside"? You can find other ways to balance the other classes with setting-specific features, and psychologically people react much better to upsides than downsides. WoW had a classic example - they changed from an "exhausted" XP penalty to a "well rested" bonus, while doubling the amount of XP required per level. Same effect in practice, but people responded much better to the idea of XP bonuses than XP penalties.

 

[Ovinomancer]

You make defiling an upside because that's how the setting lore presents it. The setting doesn't exist unless defiling is notably more powerful than preserving. Otherwise, you'll need to lore up an alternate history where some other mechanism destroys almost all life on Athas and people fear and revile all arcane casters.

 

[CleverNickName]

"Need" is a strong word. Really the only things that a D&D game needs are a handful of people who can hang out for a few hours without acting like jerks. And maybe dice, if you're a purist.

Psionics? They should be there for those who want them, and easy to ignore for those who don't. But that's about as far as I would ride that wagon.

 

[Ovinomancer]

"Need" is a strong word. Really the only things that a D&D game needs are a handful of people who can hang out for a few hours without acting like jerks. And maybe dice, if you're a purist.

Psionics? They should be there for those who want them, and easy to ignore for those who don't. But that's about as far as I would ride that wagon.

Um, Dark Sun is a specific setting with specific tropes and genre logics. It's not a general D&D game. But, for those, I do not disagree with you.