D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[squibbles]

There's also the unspoken conceit that the player-facing rules need not be how things work for everyone. It's easy to say that while for a PC, advancing as a cleric, preserver, or defiler is roughly equally easy, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a dozen defilers for each preserver or cleric around.

re: defilers being stronger than other casters.
You're right of course. Player rules don't need to correspond to setting background. @Snarf Zagyg covered that pretty well in one of many Greyhawk threads. I am of the opinion that the uniqueness of a setting comes across more strongly if they do, however. In Darksun's case, elements all over the setting treat defiling as though it is the most potent source of power--but imposes personal and collective costs. Wouldn't it be a missed opportunity not to do something player-facing with that trade-off?

I think a lot of it only works because it’s D&D. Like, you could certainly do a setting just like Dark Sun with another system and it could be good; great, even. But a lot of the choices are pointed subversions of D&D conventions, and I think they would lose some of that impact if it wasn’t D&D.

Yeah, the first thing that system's designers would do is slap a new name on the elves and halflings to get the vanilla high fantasy flavor out of their rocky road planetary romance.

I kinda feel Athas tried to be "Conan visits Barsoom as written by Vance", but somehow misses the mark on all takes. I'm not exactly sure why.

The mirth is not gigantic enough for Conan to bother visiting, the anachronistic southern honor is not performative enough to replicate Barsoom, and the flamboyant scoundrels are not flighty enough to have been written by Vance

 

[Remathilis]

The mirth is not gigantic enough for Conan to bother visiting, the anachronistic southern honor is not performative enough to replicate Barsoom, and the flamboyant scoundrels are not flighty enough to have been written by Vance

I think you kinda hit on it: Dark Sun (from my limited experience) feels like these settings without any of the moments of joy. Conan spends his hard-won gold on ale and pleasurable company, Dejah Thorne is bedecked in gold and jewels (and not much else!), these feel like a setting whose best times have passed, but are not hopeless. Dark Sun feels hopeless.

Someone else pointed out in another thread Dark Sun isn't resource poor, it's practically dead. Barsoom kept moving towards smaller and smaller bodies of water, but they still existed. Mad Max was on a perpetual hunt for petrol, but he had easy access to guns. Dark Sun makes you believe cities somehow exist without access to metal, wood or even water. Dark Sun shouldn't be bronze age, it should be stone age.

Which in the end if why I feel they tried to use the "dying world" and "bronze age harsh land" tropes but somehow missed. It doesn't feel like a world I want to explore as much as an forced to for survival. It has the same feel as most zombie apocalypse stories, survival for another day but not much beyond that. (What good are gold and jewels if you're dying of thirst?)

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think you kinda hit on it: Dark Sun (from my limited experience) feels like these settings without any of the moments of joy. Conan spends his hard-won gold on ale and pleasurable company, Dejah Thorne is bedecked in gold and jewels (and not much else!), these feel like a setting whose best times have passed, but are not hopeless. Dark Sun feels hopeless.

Someone else pointed out in another thread Dark Sun isn't resource poor, it's practically dead. Barsoom kept moving towards smaller and smaller bodies of water, but they still existed. Mad Max was on a perpetual hunt for petrol, but he had easy access to guns. Dark Sun makes you believe cities somehow exist without access to metal, wood or even water. Dark Sun shouldn't be bronze age, it should be stone age.

Which in the end if why I feel they tried to use the "dying world" and "bronze age harsh land" tropes but somehow missed. It doesn't feel like a world I want to explore as much as an forced to for survival. It has the same feel as most zombie apocalypse stories, survival for another day but not much beyond that. (What good are gold and jewels if you're dying of thirst?)

Well, in the interview with one of the designers I posted earlier, the goal for Dark Sun was D&D hard mode for "advanced" players. I don't know why hard for D&D seems to focus so strongly on resource denial, but there you go. The designer even regretted the psionic system (note: not psionics, just the 2e system) because it was too widespread and powerful and would have preferred a different or reworked system much less widespread (PCs and major NPCs only).

 

[Remathilis]

Well, in the interview with one of the designers I posted earlier, the goal for Dark Sun was D&D hard mode for "advanced" players. I don't know why hard for D&D seems to focus so strongly on resource denial, but there you go. The designer even regretted the psionic system (note: not psionics, just the 2e system) because it was too widespread and powerful and would have preferred a different or reworked system much less widespread (PCs and major NPCs only).

I think they wanted to serve two masters: thru wanted a world with power gaming cranked up to 11 (free wild talents! 21 strengths! Start at 3rd level!) but also one where you are easy to kill (your monster murder machine dies of dehydration with a broken weapon in his hand). With 4e, they dropped the D&D hard mode and it makes the settings feel more playable imnsho. As to psionics, I feel it should be an option and feature in the setting, but not be so prominent as a "mutation" given freely.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think they wanted to serve two masters: thru wanted a world with power gaming cranked up to 11 (free wild talents! 21 strengths! Start at 3rd level!) but also one where you are easy to kill (your monster murder machine dies of dehydration with a broken weapon in his hand). With 4e, they dropped the D&D hard mode and it makes the settings feel more playable imnsho. As to psionics, I feel it should be an option and feature in the setting, but not be so prominent as a "mutation" given freely.

According to the interview I linked above, the original concepts for Dark Sun didn't specifically include psionics. However, when it was became apparent 2e Psionic Handbook was in the works, the designers thought it a good fit for the 'weird' aspect of what they were developing. However, they had little insight or input into how psionics was being developed, so it was always a 'plug this in at the end' kind of thing. Turns our that at least on of the designers wasn't happy with how psionics was integrated into Dark Sun. They still like the idea, they thought it fit and they wrote it into the lore, but the application wasn't what they expected or particularly wanted. They said they would have drastically limited the scope of who gets psionics and preferred a redone system. What that might be is unspoken.

 

[Aldarc]

Regardless of what the designers would have done differently or what they intended, the Textus Receptus is one where psionics are an iconic part of the setting.

 

[glass]

No, no, no. Magic and psionics are different. Really. Like psionics is using your brain to do stuff. Not like wizards. Wait, no, psionics is something innate to you. Not like sorcerers. No, no, let me try again. Psionics is like a mutation. You only get it from being exposed to some weird outside influence. Not like warlocks. Or psionics is like... well, you know, an eggplant. And magic is an aubergine. Completely different.

Yes, people have preferences different from yours. Surely that makes them monsters worthy only of mockery. [/sarcasm]

_
glass.

 

[Remathilis]

Regardless of what the designers would have done differently or what they intended, the Textus Receptus is one where psionics are an iconic part of the setting.

I think it would be possible to scale back the amount of psionics, mostly by making it optional and connected to specific spells, subclassess, or feats, but it does feel removing it utterly would be a disservice.

 

[nevin]

I think you kinda hit on it: Dark Sun (from my limited experience) feels like these settings without any of the moments of joy. Conan spends his hard-won gold on ale and pleasurable company, Dejah Thorne is bedecked in gold and jewels (and not much else!), these feel like a setting whose best times have passed, but are not hopeless. Dark Sun feels hopeless.

Someone else pointed out in another thread Dark Sun isn't resource poor, it's practically dead. Barsoom kept moving towards smaller and smaller bodies of water, but they still existed. Mad Max was on a perpetual hunt for petrol, but he had easy access to guns. Dark Sun makes you believe cities somehow exist without access to metal, wood or even water. Dark Sun shouldn't be bronze age, it should be stone age.

Which in the end if why I feel they tried to use the "dying world" and "bronze age harsh land" tropes but somehow missed. It doesn't feel like a world I want to explore as much as an forced to for survival. It has the same feel as most zombie apocalypse stories, survival for another day but not much beyond that. (What good are gold and jewels if you're dying of thirst?)

It's really up to the DM to drive that. Are the PC's making things better are they just surviving? My campaign was focused on one city state and the PC's got sucked into the Veilled Alliance's plans. We ran it for a long time and they helped the druids and the Veilled alliance beat the Sorcerer King back and were starting to bring some more balance and life to their corner of the world. It's definitely not a game where your characters are gonna fix the world in thier lifetimes, but if you play up the we are fighting for the future, you can have some hope and joy.

 

[glass]

With regard to the how-to-implement-defiling subthread: I do not think preserving or defiling should be a subclass, I think it should be a choice every time a(n arcane) spell is cast.

If I was doing it, I would make defiling equivalent to wizards in other worlds. Wizards could cast spells at -1 effective slot level (so you would need a 3rd level slot to get cast a second level spell) to have a shot at not defiling, or -2 effective slot level to guarantee it. Conversely unrepentant Defilers would lean harder into it (perhaps with a feat) to get a bonus to effective slot level. Maybe also have a countervailing Preserver feat that makes casting without defiling a little easier/better but not too much.

I think that achieves everything I set out to: Maintains the defiling-as-fossil-fuels metaphore. Makes it possible (but not too easy) to defile accidentally. Makes it a perpetually-tempting power boost, without making it inevertable for the careful. Doesn't add a die roll to every casting (just the edge cases, which is not too onerous).

_
glass.