Darkness and the Black Dragon - Need advice

[OchreJelly]

4th edition combat is about using your at-wills and encounters and magic items to beat things, and the darkness ability says "None of those things work."

But there are tactics a skilled party could use. Delay and readied actions. They may not be the most obvious choice, but they are actions available to every character. Once the party realizes that the dragon is harmless when they outdistance it, the real fight begins. There's an argument that this is un-fun but I doubt it's unfair.

They can learn the limitations of the dragon before the fight even begins with the correct knowledge check.

The fight turns into a long skirmish battle of attrition, where the dragon cloaks and the party falls back, or the party uses powers to get the dragon out and the readied actions of the ranged attackers kicks in. Difficult? Probably, but that's how a dragon battle should be IMO.

 

[Klaus]

The Black Dragon is a hard fight because it forces the players to think, instead of just trying to pile up damage on it.

 

[Dr_Sage]

ANYWAY, I have one question I meant to ask before finding there was already a thread on black dragons. Can I find the black dragon in his darkness by running around with my arms flailing hoping to run into him? Otherwise when he drops the darkness I might find that I am inside his square.

Tecnically you would be aware of the dragon the moment you would enter his space, so you can find him this way using your move actions (stealth rules support this idea). I was never worried about this to be honest.

But fight in his terms is... difficult (remmember the AC=22+5=27). Fight in the "best tactical way" can be extremely boring in my personal oppinion (I see a 4 hour encounter).

 

[FireLance]

The Black Dragon is a hard fight because it forces the players to think, instead of just trying to pile up damage on it.

And the operative word here is "forced". If the players don't think, beating the black dragon is nearly impossible. If the players do think, it doesn't become significantly easier than any other 4th-level encounter, and it will still be a long and frustrating fight.

Doesn't all this suggest to you that there's something off about the black dragon?

 

[DracoSuave]

And the operative word here is "forced". If the players don't think, beating the black dragon is nearly impossible. If the players do think, it doesn't become significantly easier than any other 4th-level encounter, and it will still be a long and frustrating fight.

Doesn't all this suggest to you that there's something off about the black dragon?

It's not long at all. You just don't let the dragon turtle because that doesn't work and you know it.

So the fight becomes interactive.

The fight might be -longer- but the challenge shouldn't be trying to outroll a set of stats you have numerical advantage over anyways.

If other fights aren't tactically engaging, that's not the black dragon's fault for being well designed in that regard.

 

[FireLance]

It's not long at all. You just don't let the dragon turtle because that doesn't work and you know it.

Just to be clear what we are talking about here:

I'm talking about having the dragon stay in the cloud until its breath weapon recharges, exiting the cloud to attack, and then putting up the cloud of darkness again.

On average, the dragon will spend two-thirds of the encounter in the cloud, during which time the melee attackers will be waiting on the sidelines and the ranged attackers will be mostly missing. However, the ranged attackers are likely to be still attacking (and taking up time), and the melee attackers may also be switching to their weaker ranged attacks (and taking up time).

If the PCs bunch up before the dragon attacks, the dragon uses its breath weapon and tries to catch as many PCs as possible. If the PCs spread out before the dragon attacks, the dragon focuses on the one it assesses is most vulnerable and either attacks with double attack (if it can reach him with a move action) or a charging bite (otherwise), and then when the melee attackers close in, uses his breath weapon to catch as many as possible.

When the cloud of darkness is not up, the black dragon isn't any less dangerous than any other 4th-level encounter, e.g. an encounter with five kobold slyblades - it has more hit points, its defenses are on average four points higher, and while it can't deal concentrated damage, it can deal mass damage with its breath weapon.

While the cloud of darkness is up, even though the dragon won't be able to attack a clever party, the average party's ability to damage the dragon is also minimal. So, the cloud of darkness effectively drags out the fight and buys time for the dragon's most powerful ability (its breath) to recharge.

Given all of the above, do you still believe that:

1. A young black dragon presents approximately the same level of challenge to the average 4th-level party as any other 4th-level encounter.

2. The average 4th-level party will be able to defeat a young black dragon without using more resources than they would normally need to use against any other 4th-level encounter.

3. A fight against a young black dragon will not be significantly longer or more frustrating for the average 4th-level party compared to any other 4th-level encounter.

 

[DracoSuave]

1. A young black dragon presents approximately the same level of challenge to the average 4th-level party as any other 4th-level encounter.

From experience I can say yes. Kobold Lurkers are far more deadly. Black Dragon can come out, get the element of surprise, but can't drop a party member. Kobold Lurkers might be a swifter fight, but they -will- kill a man dead in their post-lurk shot.

2. The average 4th-level party will be able to defeat a young black dragon without using more resources than they would normally need to use against any other 4th-level encounter.

Yes. Because tactics don't utilize resources.

3. A fight against a young black dragon will not be significantly longer or more frustrating for the average 4th-level party compared to any other 4th-level encounter.

Lurker fights are supposed to be hit-and-run. From the DMG. An all lurker fight is going to be long, and tense. The black dragon covers that exactly.

The -only- problem with the black dragon is that it doesn't deal much damage. Brown dragons are the scarier lurker. -That- is the fight you want to look at for difficulty.

 

[FireLance]

From experience I can say yes. Kobold Lurkers are far more deadly. Black Dragon can come out, get the element of surprise, but can't drop a party member. Kobold Lurkers might be a swifter fight, but they -will- kill a man dead in their post-lurk shot.

Kobold slyblades get good spike damage, but they will have to focus all their attacks on a single character in order to have a reasonable chance of dropping his hit points below 0 in one round, and a word from the party leader (assuming he wasn't the one targeted - and tactical positioning can reduce the chance of that happening) will have him on his feet again in the next. And that's all the chance that the slyblades will get. Assuming the party can use decent tactics, they will just cluster together to minimize the opportunities for flanking, and take the slyblades down one at a time.

Don't forget that the slyblades' damage potential falls also over the course of the fight as more of them get killed, whereas the young black dragon's remains fairly constant. And while the young black dragon doesn't deal spike damage, its breath weapon can damage multiple foes simultaneously. Over the course of a multi-round fight, it adds up.

In addition, offense is only half the story. A young black dragon's defences are on average about 4 points higher than that of a kobold slyblade. Hence, a PC who can hit a slyblade 50% of the time finds that his hit chance drops to 30% on average against the young black dragon. In order to deal the same amount of damage to the young black dragon, the PC needs make about 50% more attacks. That's another 50% more rounds the black dragon gets to attack him (or someone else, or both) back.

Yes. Because tactics don't utilize resources.

Ah, but tactics change the amount of resources required to win a fight and the chances of winning in the first place. If the average 4th-level party does not need tactics to win a fight against slyblades, but requires them to win a fight against the young black dragon, you're arguing my case for me.

Let's say the party uses equally good tactics in the fight against the slyblades and the fight against the young black dragon. Which do you think the party is more likely to win? Which will require the party to use more resources (healing surges, action points, daily abilities) even if they win?

Lurker fights are supposed to be hit-and-run. From the DMG. An all lurker fight is going to be long, and tense. The black dragon covers that exactly.

Moderately long and tense is fine. Too long and frustrating is not. Unfortunately, I think a fight against a young black dragon tends more towards the latter than the former.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Good tactics should definitely change how much resources are expended. And they do.

I do no think the problem with the Black Dragons are that it can be defeated with specific tactics, or needs such defeating. The problem is not even a game balance problem (in it is to overpowered or whatever). It is a gameplay problem - the right tactics lead to a long-winded encounter that lacks excitement or variation.
It simply fails in the "is this encounter fun" department.

I'd love to see someone suggesting some house ruled variant that keeps the Black Dragons theme and role but adds more tension and variation to the encounter?

 

[Mesh Hong]

I'd love to see someone suggesting some house ruled variant that keeps the Black Dragons theme and role but adds more tension and variation to the encounter?

How about changing the Cloud of Darkness power to keep the menace and danger aspect while keeping the flavour of a lurker.

Cloud of Darkness (minor, recharge )
The Dragon creates a small cloud of utter darkness that disorientates its foes allowing it to gain a brief moment of opportunity
Burst 2; automatic hit; all creatures inside burst are dazed until the end of Black Dragons current turn

And add another power to the Dragon, in line with its Lurker role

Combat Advantage
The Black Dragon deals an additional 1d6 damage with melee attacks against enemies granting it combat advantage

The combination of these 2 powers would allow the dragon to stay mobile (no opportunity attacks from dazed enemies) and would make the dragon more of a threat (increased damage against enemies granting it combat advanatge, i.e. dazed enemies) while still keeping the flavour of the cloud of darkness.

These changes would also not hamper the PCs during their own turns as the dazed effect only lasts until the end of the Dragons turn. But overall I think it might be balanced as the Dragon has the opportunity to do increased damage.

Anyway this is just an idea.