Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Micah Sweet]

Sure. But not to put too fine a point on it, a lot of people aren't in regular fantasy adventure games to play horror games, even action-horror, let alone survival-horror which is what GMs seem to want. So they're going to push back against in various ways.

To be fair, this is not a D&D 2024 thread. There are many varieties of fantasy game featuring dungeon crawling, and all of them have players. It may well be that darkvision facilitates a style of play well-supported by the current version of D&D, but that is not the only game out there, and it's fanbase isn't the only fanbase. I don't see the value in telling someone that "most players" aren't interested in what they want, even if it's true, in a thread that is about far more than the specific game to which you are referring.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree - darkvision is not something that the players have to manage. It's something the DM has to manage in respect to encounter and adventure design. It's one thing when it's an across the board consideration. But when I have to remember than players 2, 4 and 5 have darkvision, but 1 and 3 don't, that's when I want to start handwaving it. Handwave it enough times and you wonder why it's a consideration at all.

That's why I neither handwave it, nor try to remember which PCs have darkvision. Since they use light in mixed groups, I simply describe each area is if it's bright light and then dim light. It's on them to let me know if they have darkvision and they want to see into the dim area normally. Unless I just happen to remember without trying.

 

[Distracted DM]

That's why I neither handwave it, nor try to remember which PCs have darkvision. Since they use light in mixed groups, I simply describe each area is if it's bright light and then dim light. It's on them to let me know if they have darkvision and they want to see into the dim area normally. Unless I just happen to remember without trying.

I'm confused, you give multiple descriptions of the same room back to back? "In bright light the room looks like X, you see a sign and some prints. In dim light the room looks like Y, you see a sign. What do you do?" Like that?

 

[Mannahnin]

Given darkvision's usual lack of any real rationale, it can't come across but as punishment/gotcha to a lot of people, because there's no self-evident reason for it to have these flaws; it has no real model to work off of, unlike things like low-light vision or thermal imaging.

Fair. Which is another good reason to substitute it for low-light vision if you're going to have it at all. Thermal imaging has some cool qualities and imagery but it's significantly more fiddly in terms of players and DM being all on the same page about exactly what it does and how good it is.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Given darkvision's usual lack of any real rationale, it can't come across but as punishment/gotcha to a lot of people, because there's no self-evident reason for it to have these flaws; it has no real model to work off of, unlike things like low-light vision or thermal imaging.

Yeah this is a key issue that I've been pointing out with darkvision since 3E. It's not modelling anything that makes any sense, nor is it actually like anything players encounter in, say, videogames or TV. It's one of the most profoundly game-ish elements of the WotC editions, and it doesn't really seem cool or interesting, or even really solve a problem.

I think dropping alternate vision modes entirely would be pretty reasonable, and if not that, going to low-light vision, which makes intrinsic sense and is something people do encounter in other media or even IRL with fancy cameras (even your phone camera in some cases), would be a straightforwardly better solution and have less of a negative impact on any "horror" elements of dungeons (indeed plenty of videogames have shown that low-light vision systems and horror are quite compatible).

I'd definitely avoid thermal imaging/infrared until that becomes something that's extremely common (it'll probably be on feature phones as standard within a couple of decades), because it just leads to a lot of discussions about how exactly it works and leaves a lot of room for players and DMs to trip themselves up.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I wouldn't say darkvision ruins dungeon crawling, but its overabundance does rob the GM of a valuable tool. Even for systems where resource management isn't a strong focus, darkness is useful for setting tone and obstacles.

In Shadow of the Demon Lord (the system I mostly use for fantasy right now), the predominate form form of enhanced sight is shadowsight, which just treats dim light like bright light. Which can still be really useful, but doesn't negate the interesting choices that pure darkness can cause. Alternative sources of light (magical items, spells, etc), are also less convenient than modern D&D's offerings, so carrying torches stays as the predominate option for most of the game, with all of the interesting choices (how many, who's holding them, using the lit torch as a weapon, the torch going out at inopportune moments) therein.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If only some PCs have darkvision, the GM has two choices about how to handle the information difference:

• Separate the players (or pass notes) so that the two groups get different information.
• Let everybody have the information and just apply mechanical differences

I find the first option a total non-starter. I might sometimes pass notes or separate players, but it has to be for something really important. I'm not going to do it for a whole dungeon crawl.

And while the second one can apply mechanical penalties appropriately, it is unsatisfying (to me) because it removes the whole "fear of the dark" aspect.

On another note, one thing that occurred to me while reading this thread is that I totally fail to use "eyes reflecting torchlight in the dark" to add tension to the game. I'll have to do more of that.

 

[Mannahnin]

If only some PCs have darkvision, the GM has two choices about how to handle the information difference:

• Separate the players (or pass notes) so that the two groups get different information.
• Let everybody have the information and just apply mechanical differences

I find the first option a total non-starter. I might sometimes pass notes or separate players, but it has to be for something really important. I'm not going to do it for a whole dungeon crawl.

And while the second one can apply mechanical penalties appropriately, it is unsatisfying (to me) because it removes the whole "fear of the dark" aspect.

On another note, one thing that occurred to me while reading this thread is that I totally fail to use "eyes reflecting torchlight in the dark" to add tension to the game. I'll have to do more of that.

Good points/thoughts.

This also reminds me that it's one of the stronger advantages of VTTs with dynamic lighting. Different characters having different sightlines and visibility.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This also reminds me that it's one of the stronger advantages of VTTs with dynamic lighting. Different characters having different sightlines and visibility.

Yes, that's true. I've found those features work great for keeping all the characters near the one with the light source.

 

[Reynard]

I might experiment with room descriptions specifically keyed to the different light levels. Like just a little 5 room dungeon, just to see if it makes things easier or causes too much clutter.