Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[TheEvil]

What about my initial problem of my Shadowdancer? What would you do? (Remember, he went up to his oppoinent, who had a 30' effect light source and then said he could remain hidden, right next to him (5'), because he was 10' within his oppoinent's shadow. Does this sound right to you?

Aluvial

Given my comments about answering my questions, it is only fair I answer yours. Yes, that sounds right to me. He would have to approach from the opposite side as the light source, but otherwise that is how it would work and I have absolutely no problem with that. Neither has either GM I have played a Shadowdance with.

Your primary problem seems to be a preception that HiPS is overpowered. With as many things as reduce it's usefulness, such as scent, blindsense/sight, glitterdust, etc..., I feel that it isn't. By 10th level, characters can do some pretty impressive things. A sorcerer could have invisiblity going virtually any time it matters. All HiPS really does is make someone really good at sneaking and more able to match damage with a spell caster or a fighter who goes toe to toe.

 

[Nail]

What about my initial problem of my Shadowdancer? What would you do? (Remember, he went up to his opponent, who had a 30' effect light source and then said he could remain hidden, right next to him (5'), because he was 10' within his oppoinent's shadow. Does this sound right to you?

Yep.

Not only is that "by the RAW", but it's also within the "spirit" of the rules.

I think your concern stems from a perceived lack of "counters". There are many, as have been explained previously. Perhaps we should start a list?

Moreover, this is an ECL 19 PC we're talking about. Why can't they do extrordinary things? The Wiz/Sor/Psi can kill with a thought. The Ftr/Bbn/Pal can do 200+ hp damage per round. The Rog.......why can't the Rog hide absolutely everywhere?

Your other ECL 19 PCs don't do extrordinary things?

 

[Ketjak]

But there are shadows. That's what I was trying to avoid with my solution. I understand where you guys atr making a distiction between shadow and shadowy illumination, but then where do you determine where a shadow is?

You shouldn't have to just make it up each time, or you shouldn't have to "just let it happen because shadows are everywhere."

Neither of those works for me. Either there is a distinction that you use for play, or there isn't and then the effect is broken. I think if you use my method, you at least have some rules to go with. If you go with yours, it seems completely arbritary.

What about my initial problem of my Shadowdancer? What would you do? (Remember, he went up to his oppoinent, who had a 30' effect light source and then said he could remain hidden, right next to him (5'), because he was 10' within his oppoinent's shadow. Does this sound right to you?

Aluvial

Aluvial,

It does.

Please review the Hide skill:

www.creativemountaingames.com]HIDE[/url] (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

Thus, if the SD is moving he takes -5 or -20 to his Hide check. If he moves at half speed for no penalty, that's a full-round action to get into position if it's farther away than 1/4 of his full movement rate. If he attacks, he either gets one attack and moves (provoking an AoO!) while trying to hide, or he gets a full attack and doesn't hide.

Even at 19th level, he's burning a lot of actions to make that one or those three attacks.

The target's dog (or familiar!) can smell him before he gets into position (and scent breaks the game more than HiPS). At five feet, the animal knows he's there. Glitterdust will ruin his day. Tremorsense gives him hives. An equivalent ranger, rogue, or bard will know he's there probably 40% of the time.

Or... he could have the wizard/sorcerer cast greater invisibility on him and move as fast as he wants, remaining invisible (for real, none of this Hide skill stuff) the entire time and after he makes his attacks.

Maybe at 8th level this was an issue for a couple of levels, but even so he paid 5 ranks for Perform (dance). Maybe if he's preying on low-level mooks, this is a problem. But he's facing off against pit fiends with a cold, older dragons, and worse - or should be, at any rate. They're not going to be impressed by a little hiding when the party mage is casting orbital death ray every round.

 

[Abraxas]

If he attacks, he either gets one attack and moves (provoking an AoO!) while trying to hide, or he gets a full attack and doesn't hide.

Just a note, wether or not this is correct depends on if you think the RoTG article or the 3.5 FAQ is correct regarding hiding.