Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[Abraxas]

For the character with LLV, a shadowdancer has to be within the shadowy light so that the viewer can see him. Since there are NO OTHER shadows to hide in, we assume that the shadowdancer can HiPS within 10' of the shadowy light, correct?

Just a note, the following uses colored fonts, depending on your settings it might be hard to see.

No.
This is how I work it.
C = character
L = lightsource
+++ = brightly lit for everyone
+++ = shadowy illumination for those without LLV = brightly lit for CWLLV (character with low light vision)
+++ = darkness for character without LLV = shadowy illumination for CWLLV
SD = shadow dancer

C+++L++++++++++++++++SD++++++++++++++++++++++

or

C+++L+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++SD+++++++++

If there is nothing casting a shadow within 10ft of the SD he can't HiPS - it doesn't matter if the character he is hiding from has LLV or not, it doesn't matter if the character can or can't see clearly to the SD's position, It doesn't matter if the SD is in shadowy illumination or not, it doesn't matter that a character with LLV can see details and color in areas of reduced illumination that a character without LLV can't.
Shadowy illumination is not a shadow.

In the second illustration the SD doesn't have to HiPS from a character without LLV because a character without LLV can't see the SD at all.

Now if we add an object (O) between the lightsource and the SD it casts a shadow (s)

C+++L+++++++++++Oss++SD++++++++++++++++++++++

or

C+++L++++++++++++++++++++++Oss++SD+++++++++++

If this shadow is within 10 ft of the SD she can use HiPS.

I have a question for you, with your interpretation HiPS is harder to use by a character with LLV than a character without. Why would this be?

 

[ThirdWizard]

See, low-light vision doesn't matter, because the shadow always starts at the object/creature casting the shadow. It doesn't matter if you have low-light vision or not. A creature (at least one on the ground) always touches its own shadow.

 

[KarinsDad]

Again, if it isn't the way I suggested, how do you handle a character with keener eyesight (i.e., LLV)? The shadows aren't in the same degree of darkness for this character, they see better and the gradient effect, basically the change between game terms of Brightly Lit to Shadowy Light, is twice as far away. For the character with LLV, a shadowdancer has to be within the shadowy light so that the viewer can see him. Since there are NO OTHER shadows to hide in, we assume that the shadowdancer can HiPS within 10' of the shadowy light, correct?

If by shadowy light you mean shadowy illumination, then no, he cannot.

He can only HiPS near a shadow.

He cannot HiPS near shadowy illumination.

Strange, but true.

 

[Felnar]

let me propose something.
say its a bright sunny day with the sun directly overhead,
the leaves/branches of a tree create a shadow beneath it.
hopeful no one disagree's with this.

now say a wizard casts 6 continual flames on rocks all around the base of the tree

is there still a shadow beneath the tree?
do the continual flames and the leaves/branches create a shadow 'above' the tree?

- Felnar

 

[TheGogmagog]

This bares repeating. And since there's no "game definition" of a shadow, we have to rely on DM/player judgement.

For those of you with Shadowdancers in your group: Has determining where shadows are really been a problem? Why not just "arm wave it"? A simple binary solution should do.

This is the crux of the problem. The shadowdancer ability relies on the existance of a shadow, but 'shadow' is not a defined game term. You have two ways to resolve this One is to apply 'Shadowy Illumination' terms, which is subjective and opens up these debates about vison types and the perception of shadows.

The other option is to apply the real world logic, which 'The Evil' presents in the question about it being cooler in the shade than in direct sunlight. (cover or concealment from the radiation). Generally, I steer clear of applying real world logic/physics/definitions when there is a suitable game term, but it seems that 'shadowy illumination' is not suitable for this ability.

With this definition, a user with a candle in a 200' cavern, will cast a shadow all the way to the wall 200' away, even though the user can only see 5', 10' or 60'.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Ack, I keep getting distracted and the thread is running away.

It seems though that you have two arguments here. Those that are trying to apply the subjective game term, and those that are trying to use a 'real world' definition.

let me propose something.
say its a bright sunny day with the sun directly overhead,
the leaves/branches of a tree create a shadow beneath it.
hopeful no one disagree's with this.

now say a wizard casts 6 continual flames on rocks all around the base of the tree

is there still a shadow beneath the tree?
do the continual flames and the leaves/branches create a shadow 'above' the tree?

- Felnar

Personally, I suspect that the hide in plane sight ability was based on contact with the shadow plane. Which is said to contact the prime wherever this undefined 'shadow' exists. In my opinion, it makes contact in complete darkness (a cavern with no light, and 'technically' no shadow). It would not exist when you have an illuminated area, under the tree or above it in this case.

I suppose even the real world/physics application of shadow has grey areas (pardon the pun). Like stage lighting where you can see dual faint shadows, or under a charcter's feet, a rock, the stone tile the floor is made of.

 

[Nail]

My point is that shadowy light is shadow.

Nope.

Shadow does not equal shadowy illumination, period. They are different.

 

[Nail]

....(snip)......(tree illuminated by sun and many continual flames) is there still a shadow beneath the tree?

Depends.

Here's where the DM's judgement comes in. I'd rule "no", as all the sources of light illuminate the area fully.

 

[Nail]

Personally, I suspect that the hide in plane sight ability was based on contact with the shadow plane. Which is said to contact the prime wherever this undefined 'shadow' exists. In my opinion, it makes contact in complete darkness (a cavern with no light, and 'technically' no shadow).

You are confusing "darkness" with "shadow". They are not the same.

 

[Aluvial]

Depends.

Here's where the DM's judgement comes in. I'd rule "no", as all the sources of light illuminate the area fully.

But there are shadows. That's what I was trying to avoid with my solution. I understand where you guys atr making a distiction between shadow and shadowy illumination, but then where do you determine where a shadow is?

You shouldn't have to just make it up each time, or you shouldn't have to "just let it happen because shadows are everywhere."

Neither of those works for me. Either there is a distinction that you use for play, or there isn't and then the effect is broken. I think if you use my method, you at least have some rules to go with. If you go with yours, it seems completely arbritary.

What about my initial problem of my Shadowdancer? What would you do? (Remember, he went up to his oppoinent, who had a 30' effect light source and then said he could remain hidden, right next to him (5'), because he was 10' within his oppoinent's shadow. Does this sound right to you?

Aluvial