Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[Nail]

I was a supporter the first time around. The comic is easily worth a bit of hard-earned cash.

[edit]Oh yeah=> Nice Avatar!

 

[VorpalStare]

...but as I look out my window, I can see the color of the grass in the shadow. And I'm pretty sure I don't have darkvision.

You're just not using your darkvision because you can see normally in broad daylight!

Try the same example at night using a bulls-eye lantern to illuminate the grass.

Brings up another good point. How dark do the shadows need to be to qualify for HiPS? Light reflects off of things and anyplace near a light source, even the shadow of an opaque object, will have some light. The shadow of a shady tree in the middle of a sunlit field is not dark enough, because anyone with ordinary vision can see clearly into it -- i.e. it would not count as concealment for anyone. If someone is holding a torch in an otherwise unlit cavern 1000' across, the light from the torch reaches the other side (It would appear as a point of light there.) but would not prevent someone from hiding at that distance.

Back to the discussion on shadowy illumination.....

 

[Aluvial]

Got to go for a while, I WILL return and make sense of this.

 

[TheEvil]

You're just not using your darkvision because you can see normally in broad daylight!

Try the same example at night using a bulls-eye lantern to illuminate the grass.

Brings up another good point. How dark do the shadows need to be to qualify for HiPS? Light reflects off of things and anyplace near a light source, even the shadow of an opaque object, will have some light. The shadow of a shady tree in the middle of a sunlit field is not dark enough, because anyone with ordinary vision can see clearly into it -- i.e. it would not count as concealment for anyone. If someone is holding a torch in an otherwise unlit cavern 1000' across, the light from the torch reaches the other side (It would appear as a point of light there.) but would not prevent someone from hiding at that distance.

Back to the discussion on shadowy illumination.....

So you are arguing that a the shadow of a tree in a sunlit field isn't some sort of shadow?

 

[Abraxas]

Question for the rules-folks: are we talking "local" shadows (those cast by torches, lanterns, bonfires, trees) or "global" shadows (those cast by the curvature of the planet, or several tons of rock serving as the dungeon ceiling)? I suspect the former.

Does HiPS work in total darkness? Based on my above opinion, I suspect not.

In campaigns I have played in and DM'd HiPS works in global shadows as well as local shadows.

If anyone is interested, I could post links to a number of the other HiPS threads that have occurred over the past year where all these things have been discussed before.

 

[Pinotage]

For those of you with Shadowdancers in your group: Has determining where shadows are really been a problem? Why not just "arm wave it"? A simple binary solution should do.

Never. For most gameplay scenarios there is always a shadow somewhere, unless the party if moving under darkvision through a pitch black dungeon (see below), or the shadowdancer is alone in the middle of an open field in broad daylight. I've never had it come up, but then my player and I sat down right at the start and worked all these things out until we were both happy. Oh, and I agree, total darkness does not count for HiPS purposes. Besides, it's kinda mute since you have total concealment and can hide normally in any case.

Pinotage

 

[KarinsDad]

I say that PC2 has Cover from the light source, but is in the area of illuminations. Notice how you has to specify where exactly the light source was. Whose to say where it is during the game. All I know is that it is in a specific square. This is where we start to differ. I say that both PC1 and PC2 are moving, the torch is moving, and so is the shadow cast by PC1 in PC2's direction. That's why you don't account for that, and you account for the light source itself and the area of effect it has.

The point is the same. What if PC1 is not holding a torch, rather it is a lamp on a table instead?

L PC1 PC2

Would you as DM rule that the PC2 who is in the 5' square on the other side of PC1 gets a concealment miss chance? If no, then he is not in Shadowy Illumination.

And according to you, he is also not in PC1's shadow as well since shadow = shadowy illumination for you.

But, ruling that he is not in PC1's shadow does not really make sense, does it?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Oh, and I agree, total darkness does not count for HiPS purposes. Besides, it's kinda mute since you have total concealment and can hide normally in any case.

It actually makes a difference. If total darkness doesn't count as shadow, then you can't HiPS and people with Darkvision will foil your hiding, since you don't have concealment from them in total darkness. If HiPS does work in total darkness, then you can use it and others' vision won't matter.

 

[KarinsDad]

It actually makes a difference. If total darkness doesn't count as shadow, then you can't HiPS and people with Darkvision will foil your hiding, since you don't have concealment from them in total darkness. If HiPS does work in total darkness, then you can use it and others' vision won't matter.

I would rule that total darkness is not shadow.

Shadow is a combination of light and darkness (i.e. it is less light then surrounding light, just not zero light).

Darkness (normal, not magical) is zero light.

Shadow has to have some light elements in it to be considered shadow. If it has zero light in it, it is darkness instead. IMO.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Well, as shadow isn't a defined term, its up to the individual DM to rule on it. I'm just pointing out the differences between the two interprietations.