Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[Ketjak]

YOUR shadow...

I am of the opinion that a "local" shadow is required. As a DM, that seems most fair. (As a player... well, that's obvious.)

So what counts as your shadow? If a SD carries a continual flame object (pebble) together with another object and drops it at his feet, does the shadow cast by the other object count as part of the SD's shadow?

 

[Aluvial]

No buts. Your argument collapses just before the second comma. Try to argue - or even acknowledge - the "green" argument for fun and profit.

- Ket

I concede the point about the green scenario. It makes sense. I see what you are all trying to say. That shadow, and shadowy illumination are different. If they are different, just tell me how?

The point is the same. What if PC1 is not holding a torch, rather it is a lamp on a table instead?

L PC1 PC2

Would you as DM rule that the PC2 who is in the 5' square on the other side of PC1 gets a concealment miss chance? If no, then he is not in Shadowy Illumination.

And according to you, he is also not in PC1's shadow as well since shadow = shadowy illumination for you.

But, ruling that he is not in PC1's shadow does not really make sense, does it?

No, I see now that what you are differentiating on is the point that shadowy illumination gives concealment cover, where shadows do not. I concede that point. The two are clearly different in that regard.

My trouble lies in the assumtion that every shadowdancer could virtually be invisible (and I'm assuming a maxed hide score) to the average Spot score basically anywhere but in an open field under bright sunlit conditions. If you are underground, and there is a light source (and it can be anywhere) there is a shadow somewhere within 10' so that the Shadowdancer can use his HiPS. Does this make sense? If this were the case, couldn't the same Shadowdancer hide in that same open field, because the blades of grass cast shadows on one another?

I want to keep the rules simple, yet I see that the Light/Shadow/Darkness problem has more holes in it the the game rules that address those rules have. At least with my method there seemed to be a right or wrong (I suggest that each square on the board is in absolutely one of three conditions of light). I'm not suggesting that my way was easy, in fact it looks like it is a real pain, but, it is a way of fixing most of the problems with HiPS.

For me, I can see why you go with two types of shadow, but for me it is the same thing. Shadow is shadowy, shadowy is shadow. Shadowy just has a concealment factor associated with it.

Just so you know why I had this problem in the first place.... my campaign sports a 19th level Shadowdancer who claims, since he is within 10' of his opponents shadow, he can remain absolutely hidden, even if right next to the source of a light! If you go with the general concensus here, you would have to agree with him. I cannot. It just doesn't add up.

My problem is that there has to be some distinct way of determining the area of a Lit square, I figured you used the same method for radius that you would for a fireball. Why not, makes sense. So now light is blocky with that zig-zag pattern like other radius effects. The problem with my analysis only seemed to fail when Low-Light Vision reared its ugly head. Now there are characters who see twice as far as normal, under the same lighting conditions. The question is asked, "Why do they see farther?" Is it because they 1) their eyes are keener and therefore light has a double effect for them, or is it 2) They can see just into where ordinary darkness falls because of some other special/magic/extraordinary effect? I argue that option one is the simpler of choices, so it must hold true. Their eyes are keener. Light effects are doubled for them.

So if that is the case, hope we can agree on that, then what is normally considered shadowy is actually Lit for them, and what is normally dark, is shadowy (up to double the new Lit radius). This seems logical and well within the confines of the rules. If you follow so far, then the next step is where everyone starts balking. If a creature with Low-Light Vision sees the area as a Lit square, doesn't the Shadowdancer have to be within 10' of what they percieve as shadow? As far as I'm concerned, this is the only sticky point to my argument.

My opponents (in this debate, not personal of course) see the question of where the shadow actually lies. I contest that the shadow is in the eye of the beholder. If I see twice as far as you do, I can see twice as far as you do. I see twice as far. Shadow for me is twice as far away. It doesn't matter where normal shadow lies for the Shadowdancer, it matters where I see the shadow at. For me I would witness the Shadowdancer trying to use a shadow that is much further away. I can see what he's trying to do, because from my perspective, he is in a Lit area. For me, he can't use a shadow, that for me doesn't exist and is much farther away. Anyhow, that's my side of this coin. IF you do maintain a divergent opinion, and that normal shadow is actual shadow, then how do you explain Low-Light Vision?

I understand what you are all trying to say, but someone has to admit that my point, athough ultimately complicating the situation in an effort to clear it up, is a decent point, regardless of how impractical it would be to run in game.

Aluvial

 

[Abraxas]

My opponents (in this debate, not personal of course) see the question of where the shadow actually lies. I contest that the shadow is in the eye of the beholder. If I see twice as far as you do, I can see twice as far as you do. I see twice as far. Shadow for me is twice as far away.

This only applies to the shadowy illumination portion of the various light spells. It doesn't apply to an actual shadow. A shadow is the same distance from you wether or not you have LLV. How well you can see in that shadow depends on wether or not you have LLV, but its location doesn't change. A sphere with a light spell cast on it floating in a featureless room that measures 50' x 50' x 50' casts no shadows. It provides an area of bright illumination and an area of shadowy illumination, but without an object besides the shpere in the room no shadows are cast. The vision of creature with LLV is unimpared anywhere in the room, a creature without LLV can see clearly in a 20 ft-radius around the sphere and has impaired vision from 20-ft to the walls.

Something else to consider. Suppose you (with your low light vision), a shadowdancer and a post casting a shadow are in a straight line like so on an otherwise featureless plain. You are invisible so you cast no shadow.

Y.....SD.....Pssssssss

Y = you
SD = shadowdancer
P = post
sss = shadow

You are 5 feet away from a shadowdancer and 10 feet away from the post casting the shadow. Are you saying the shadow is actually 20 feet away from you and thus 15 feet from the shadowdancer who is then unable to use it to HiPS?

It doesn't matter where normal shadow lies for the Shadowdancer, it matters where I see the shadow at. For me I would witness the Shadowdancer trying to use a shadow that is much further away. I can see what he's trying to do, because from my perspective, he is in a Lit area. For me, he can't use a shadow, that for me doesn't exist and is much farther away.

With this interpretation you have the wonky situation of a shadowdancer not being able to HiPS if the shadow that is 10 ft away from him is out of sight to you because it is around a corner. You are confusing being able to see in shadowy illumination with there being no shadows. Nothing in the description of LLV says shadows don't exist for creatures with LLV.

Anyhow, that's my side of this coin. IF you do maintain a divergent opinion, and that normal shadow is actual shadow, then how do you explain Low-Light Vision?

Easy, the eyes of creatures with LLV are more sensitive and they need less illumination to pick up such visual information as detail and color.

 

[KarinsDad]

I understand what you are all trying to say, but someone has to admit that my point, athough ultimately complicating the situation in an effort to clear it up, is a decent point, regardless of how impractical it would be to run in game.

Equating shadows to shadowy illumination is fine to do in your game, you should just be consistent (i.e. someone in someone else's shadow should have concealment then).

Not doing so is also fine.

Some of the people here, myself included, try to interpret the rules in a fairly literal way to avoid confusion (course, it sometimes adds to the confusion).

To me, if they had meant shadowy illumination which is a legitimate game mechanic, they would (or should) have said so.


Btw, the literal interpretation also indicates that there are circumstances where a ShadowDancer cannot HiPS.

For example, PC1 has a 40 foot radius light source in a large room. PC2 is a ShadowDancer. Just because the ShadowDancer is within 10 feet of Shadowy Illumination (but not within 10 feet of PC1) does NOT mean that he is within 10 feet of a shadow. If you rule (like I do) that Shadowy Illumination is not equal to shadow, then there are no shadows there (other than PC2's shadow which he cannot use for HiPS).

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.


The Shadowy Illumination is equal to a Shadow interpretation would allow any Shadowy Illumination within 10 feet to be used (e.g. that beyond a light radius or even a Darkness spell).

 

[Sejs]

It doesn't matter where normal shadow lies for the Shadowdancer, it matters where I see the shadow at.

How you percieve the shadow does not change its properties, just how you interact with them. Just because you can see through it does not mean that it isn't there.

And the shadowdancer's requirement is only that the shadows be present, not that they grant concealment against someone they're trying to hide from.

 

[interwyrm]

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Do shadows (undead from mm) count? If they do, can a shadowdancer summon one and then hide in it, or does that count as 'her own shadow'. Also... here's a thought, if the type of vision has something to do with it, does a dwarf shadowdancer have a harder time finding a place to hide than a human one? Further, if it doesn't matter what the illumination is, is there a possibility that a character with darkvision might not know when they can hide?

 

[sequoia]

Hi Guys... was just lurking and......
[/QUOTE]A sphere with a light spell cast on it floating in a featureless room that measures 30' x 30' x 30' casts no shadows. It provides an area of bright illumination and an area of shadowy illumination, but without an object besides the shpere in the room no shadows are cast. The vision of creature with LLV is unimpared anywhere in the room, a creature without LLV can see clearly in a 20 ft-radius around the sphere and has impaired vision from 20-ft to the walls.

I know I'm being pedantic, but in a 30' square room with 20' radius illumination.... anybody would see the whole room.... because 20' radius illuminates an area 40' across.... ^^
Just my 2 cents....

 

[Abraxas]

Oops, fixed it now.

 

[sequoia]

LOL....I'm an english nerd, sorry....lol

 

[Aluvial]

Again, I see the point you are all trying to make. My point is that shadowy light is shadow. My argument does not have any cover to make any real shadow in. Cover (from a light source) creates a shadow. I'm fine with that type of HiPS. I'm just talking about the shadowy illumination that comes from any light source. Essentially we're talking light intensity, and how it diffuses in the atmosphere. There's no way to do this in game terms without just creating two types of lighting, one Brightly Lit, the other Shadowy Illumination. Real light diffuses or gradients away from it's source until it is absorbed... There is no ring of effect unless the light is reflected off of something to create that ring. Game light has to opperate differently than that of real light. If it doesn't, then you have a problem.

Again, if it isn't the way I suggested, how do you handle a character with keener eyesight (i.e., LLV)? The shadows aren't in the same degree of darkness for this character, they see better and the gradient effect, basically the change between game terms of Brightly Lit to Shadowy Light, is twice as far away. For the character with LLV, a shadowdancer has to be within the shadowy light so that the viewer can see him. Since there are NO OTHER shadows to hide in, we assume that the shadowdancer can HiPS within 10' of the shadowy light, correct?

Aluvial