Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[Nail]

That's not going to work for me. I say that shadowy and shadow are the same thing.

and hey: it's your game.

I think, however, that its pretty darn simple to decide if there are nearby shadows or not. No need for an Optics degree.

 

[VorpalStare]

...unless they use Darkvision. The description of that ability explicitly calls that property out.

Someone can use darkvision and normal vision simultaneously. From the DMG p. 292:

The presence of light does not spoil darkvision. If a character has darkvision with a 60-foot range, and he stands within a 20-foot radius of light, the character can see normally in the light, and 40 feet beyond the light because of his darkvision.

Errr....?? This assertion is contradicted by RAW.

Are you saying that the two areas in the DMG example would appear the same to someone with darkvision? My assertion is that in a well-lit area, both darkvision and normal vision work, and that this area would appear brighter than an area of total shadow, if viewed side-by-side.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm saying that is the same thing for game play. Yes, in reality there are shadows everywhere, but that poses the problem of how much of a shadow is needed to hide in. Someone earlier said, "well I can't hide in my own shadow so I'll just carry a thimble around and hide in that shadow.

That's not going to work for me. I say that shadowy and shadow are the same thing.

Aluvial

It quite clearly says "shadow" not "shadowy illumination" and specifically notes that you can't hide in your own shadow, strongly implying that you can hide in someone else's shadow, not to mention the fact that it wouldn't have to make this statement if your interprietation were correct and shadowy illumination were needed.

House Rule it if you want, but it says shadow.

 

[Aluvial]

You are equating "a shadow" to "Shadowy Illumination".

The first is not a game mechanic. The second is.

If HiPS was written "Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of shadowy illumination, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in the shadowy illumination of her own shadow.", then I would agree with you.


I think the "can HiPS next to the color green" is a good example. It does not matter if the viewer can see the green or not, it is merely important that the color green be there.


Let's take a different example:

PC1 is holding a lit torch in front of him (not above his head) and is walking in a very large totally dark cave.
PC2 is walking 5 feet behind PC1.

PC2 is in PC1's shadow.
PC2 is not in shadowy illumination (at least according to most DMs) and would not get a concealment miss chance if a goblin fired an arrow at him from the darkness over 200 feet away.

In order for you to rule that Shadow = Shadowy Illumination, you would have to give PC2 a concealment miss chance in this circumstance. I know of no DMs who do that in their game (i.e. keep track of light sources and whether PCs are standing in the shadows of other PCs).

I say that PC2 has Cover from the light source, but is in the area of illuminations. Notice how you has to specify where exactly the light source was. Whose to say where it is during the game. All I know is that it is in a specific square. This is where we start to differ. I say that both PC1 and PC2 are moving, the torch is moving, and so is the shadow cast by PC1 in PC2's direction. That's why you don't account for that, and you account for the light source itself and the area of effect it has.

Aluvial

 

[Nail]

Someone can use darkvision and normal vision simultaneously.

True. And in the area of complete darkness, there would be no color. As to how darkvision might see a shadow of a lone tree in a sunny field....that's up to you.

Are you saying that the two areas in the DMG example would appear the same to someone with darkvision?

No. You'll need to be more clear about the "two areas" you are talking about.

 

[Nail]

I say that PC2 has Cover from the light source, but is in the area of illuminations.

Rules alert! Rules alert!

You're outside the RAW now, bud.

...not that there's anything wrong with that....

 

[TheEvil]

Hate bumping myself, but here we go:

As far as perception and shadows, I think I will try a new tact to see if it clarifies things.
Take this situation: A well lit T-intersection in a dungeon. A SD is standing in the middle of the intersection within 10 feet of a shadow down the left branch of the top of the T. A human with no line of sight to the shadow due to the corner is standing down the bottom of the T. Can the Shadowdancer HiPS?

 

[Nail]

BTW, TheEvil: Do you read Sluggy? Just currious.

 

[ThirdWizard]

BTW, TheEvil: Do you read Sluggy? Just currious.

I think its fairly obvious he reads Sluggy.

EDIT: Unless that is one huge coincidence! ^^;

 

[Nail]

I've learned to avoid assuming things (without at least stating the assumption). Saves hassles later.

Sluggy is, BTW, the bomb. No assumption necessary.