Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[TheEvil]

Let us stay with this thread.

It can be proven that shadows exist indepent of the ability to percieve them. Does anyone care to contest this fact so that we can lay it to rest once and for all?

 

[Aluvial]

Yes. Aren't those the same thing? I'm thinking that it is for game terms.

When it says shadows it means shadows. As in, there's a wagon sitting there casting a shadow.

Here's an analogy. Say you had the ability to Hide in Plain Sight whenever you are near something green and are standing in an open field of grass at night. Does Darkvision negate this since the person with Darkvision can't see color? I think that's silly, myself.

The problem with Darkvision is that it used to Infravision... People got turned off the idea of seeing a heat source, so they changed it to a Extraordinary effect.

DARKVISION
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

So, now you see black and white, no color, and according to the Vision and Light section, creatures hiding.

Aluvial

 

[Nail]

Okay I'll move to this thread, then, and bring my argument with me.

Hey, I always bring my baggage from previous relationships with me, arguements included.

 

[ThirdWizard]

So, now you see black and white, no color, and according to the Vision and Light section, creatures hiding.

Umm... not if you have the Hide in Plain Sight ability which I specifically used in my example...

 

[Nail]

you see black and white, no color, and according to the Vision and Light section, creatures hiding.

I think you missed this part:
"It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be."

HiPS is a (Su). It is NOT "hiding using concealment provided by darkness".

Different.

 

[Nail]

Lemme bump this part again.

It can be proven that shadows exist indepent of the ability to percieve them. Does anyone care to contest this fact so that we can lay it to rest once and for all?

 

[KarinsDad]

Irrelevant. Black and white TV is equivalent to human vision with the colors "turned off." Because of this, shadows appear as darker colors.

Darkvision is not human vision with the colors "turned off," because it does not rely on light at all. In darkvision, there are no shadows because they are an aspect of light.

Ok, that was a bad example.


But, in a totally dark area, there are no shadows since there is no light. Hence, we are talking about an area with light (and shadow). Also, "The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.".

So, in order for HiPS to be used at all, there must be light and there must be shadow. The Darkvision of a Dwarf would not spoil his ability to see a normal shadow with his normal vision.


Course, all of this is irrelevant to the discussion since the only requirement is that a shadow exist, not whether or not an observer see the shadow, see the shadow as a brighter area, or see into the shadow with Darkvision.

 

[Aluvial]

Let us stay with this thread.

It can be proven that shadows exist indepent of the ability to percieve them. Does anyone care to contest this fact so that we can lay it to rest once and for all?

Yes they exist, independent of the viewer, BUT, the viewer with Low-Light Vision doubles the effect of existing illumination for that character.

I'm not trying to argue here, I'm trying to account for the rule for creatures with Low-Light Vision. The area of brightness for any light source is doubled for them. That's all. I see where others are taking this, but try to look at the perspective of the creature with LLV, he can see twice as far. His area of illumination is twice as much for any given light source. The Shadowdancer has to be within 10' of that shadowy illumination to HiPS.

Aluvial

 

[VorpalStare]

So I agree with Patyrn here: shadows don't appear to darkvision.......

...err, unless they are undead Shadows.

I disagree with this view.

Dwarves, half-orcs, etc., unless otherwise noted, are not color blind. Given a spot of total darkness in an otherwise well lit area(think moonscape here), the person with darkvision would still see the shadow as an area lacking in color. The shadow would probably appear dimmer as well, as their eyes would be less stimulated in that area compared to the surroundings.

 

[Sejs]

*nod* As others have already said, having darkvision doesn't mean the shadows don't exist, just that you can see through them. The shadowdancer just requires the shadows to be present in order to use HiPS.

If for some reason darkvision made shadows 'not exist' for the character, then no shadowdancer could use Hide in Plain Sight after level 2.