Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[Aluvial]

I concur with Thanee. Since HiPS is a supernatural ability, hence magical in nature, darkvision should not be able to penetrate it.

Pinotage

I just went through this line of thought. Here are the conclusions...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=130820

From the SRD:hosted by www.systemreferencedocuments.org

Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but everyone else needs light to see by. See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts.

In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters.

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

[left][b]Table: LIGHT SOURCES AND ILLUMINATION[/b] [/left]
[left][b]Object			 Bright		Shadowy		 Duration[/b][/left]
[left]Candle			 n/a		15 ft.		 1 hr.[/left]
[left]Everburning torch	 20 ft.		40 ft.		 Permanent[/left]
[left]Lamp, common		 15 ft.		30 ft.		 6 hr./pint[/left]
[left]Lantern, bullseye	 260-ft. cone 120-ft. cone	 6 hr./pint[/left]
[left]Lantern, hooded		 30 ft.		60 ft.		 6 hr./pint[/left]
[left]Sunrod			 30 ft.		60 ft.		 6 hr.[/left]
[left]Torch			 20 ft.		40 ft.		 1 hr. [/left]
[left][b]Spell			 Bright		Shadowy		 Duration[/b][/left]
[left]Continual flame		 20 ft.		40 ft.		 Permanent[/left]
[left]Dancing lights(torches)	 20 ft.(each)	40 ft.(each)	 1 min.Daylight		 60 ft.		120 ft.		 30 min.Light			 20 ft.		40 ft.		 10 min. [/left]
[left]1 [i]A candle does not provide bright illumination, only shadowy illumination.[/i][/left]
[left]2 [i]A bullseye lantern illuminates a cone, not a radius.[/i][/left]

Essentially read the last line before the code... "Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover. "

Essentially, a Shadowdancer can hide each turn as part of a move. Each time the Shadowdancer moves, he must make a new hide check, as well as a hide check, each time someone actively tries to Spot him. The shadow dancer is considered hiding relative to the person viewing him. If a creature has low-light vision for example, light effects double in range. Shadowy effects double their range. The shadowdancer to remain hidden, must be in darkness, shadow, concealment, have cover, or be within 10' of shadow. That's it. If the shadowdancer moves in a way that he is not in one of these area realative to the viewer, and doesn't make the appropriate opposed roll with that individual viewer, then he is spotted immediately.

Aluvial

 

[KarinsDad]

Essentially read the last line before the code... "Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover. "

Essentially, a Shadowdancer can hide each turn as part of a move. Each time the Shadowdancer moves, he must make a new hide check, as well as a hide check, each time someone actively tries to Spot him. The shadow dancer is considered hiding relative to the person viewing him. If a creature has low-light vision for example, light effects double in range. Shadowy effects double their range. The shadowdancer to remain hidden, must be in darkness, shadow, concealment, have cover, or be within 10' of shadow. That's it. If the shadowdancer moves in a way that he is not in one of these area realative to the viewer, and doesn't make the appropriate opposed roll with that individual viewer, then he is spotted immediately.

HiPS is not hiding in shadowy illumination. It does not follow the rules on when hiding can be done. It has its own rules on when hiding can be done.

It is the supernatural ability to use the Hide skill when the Hide skill cannot normally be used.

The only pre-requisite to do this is having a shadow within 10 feet.

There are no pre-requisites on the visual capabilities of the viewer. The reason people are getting confused over this is due to the fact that the normal hiding rules (e.g. cover, darkness, shadowy illumination, concealment) are based on the visual capabilities of the viewer. This ability does not limit it that way. It limits it solely to having a shadow within 10 feet. Nothing more. Nothing less.


What you are doing here is taking the general rule (i.e. the rules on when the Hide skill can be used) and stating that the specific rule (i.e. the rules on when the Hide in Plain Sight ability can be used) disagree with the general rule, hence, they do not work.

The specific rule always overrides the general rule, not vice versa.

 

[Nail]

Huh....2 threads on this at the same time. How 'bout someone starts up a third thread?

 

[TheEvil]

A challange...

As I and KarinsDad have pointed out, one's inability to perceive shadow doesn't mean the shadow isn't there. In the shade on a sunny day is still cooler then out of it. Yet no one who thinks that darkvision negates HiPS has responded to that that I have read.

Please respond to this point.

 

[Nail]

I'll "third" TheEvil's point. The ability of an opponent to perceive the shadow is irrelevant to the ShadowDancer's ability to HiPS.

 

[Aluvial]

Huh....2 threads on this at the same time. How 'bout someone starts up a third thread?

There are three. This one and http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=130820 and the one with the poll http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=131465

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

HiPS is not hiding in shadowy illumination. It does not follow the rules on when hiding can be done. It has its own rules on when hiding can be done.

It is the supernatural ability to use the Hide skill when the Hide skill cannot normally be used.

The only pre-requisite to do this is having a shadow within 10 feet.

There are no pre-requisites on the visual capabilities of the viewer. The reason people are getting confused over this is due to the fact that the normal hiding rules (e.g. cover, darkness, shadowy illumination, concealment) are based on the visual capabilities of the viewer. This ability does not limit it that way. It limits it solely to having a shadow within 10 feet. Nothing more. Nothing less.


What you are doing here is taking the general rule (i.e. the rules on when the Hide skill can be used) and stating that the specific rule (i.e. the rules on when the Hide in Plain Sight ability can be used) disagree with the general rule, hence, they do not work.

The specific rule always overrides the general rule, not vice versa.

I agree completely with you, except with the fact that you think that I disagree! What I'm saying is NOT that the Shadowdancer can't HiPS, clearly that is the special ability of the Shadowdancer, I'm not trying to take that away. He merely need's to be within 10' of a square with shadow. This is relative to the viewer though. Characters that have Low-Light Vision can see twice as far as normal. A square that is normally shadow to a normal viewing creature is considered brightly lit to a creature with LLV. IF the shadowdancer finds himself in a position where he is not within 10' of shadow, relative to the viewer, than he is illuminated (barring cover or invisibility).

Of-course, I've posted this in two of the three threads now....

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

I'll "third" TheEvil's point. The ability of an opponent to perceive the shadow is irrelevant to the ShadowDancer's ability to HiPS.

I agree with this statement also. The problem is whether the Shadowdancer can HiPS, he can relative to the light source AND the viewer. A viewer who can see twice as much as fully illuminated squares (Low-Light Vision), can see a shadowdancer who thinks he is hiding in shadow, even if he is hiding in shadow.

Let me try an example: A character has a light source with a radius of 30'. This means that there is shadowy illumination to 60'. The Shadow dancer is at 20' to the light source. He is clearly in a Lit square, but is still within 10' of the shadowy light. He can roll for HiPS.

Light
Source	 30'	 60'	 90'	 120'
 
Viewer	SD

Now, if the Viewer has Low-Light Vision his Lit area extends to 60' and shadowy to 120'. The Shadowdancer has to be at the 50' mark to remain hidden.

Aluvial

 

[Nail]

There are three. This one and http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=130820 and the one with the poll http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=131465

Aluvial

A-ha!

 

[Nail]

Now, if the Viewer has Low-Light Vision his Lit area extends to 60' and shadowy to 120'. The Shadowdancer has to be at the 50' mark to remain hidden.

Fotunately, the RAW does not agree with you. HiPS does not rely on being near a square of shadowy illumination, nor does it depend on the senses of the opponents.

Thank goodness! Talk about a headache.