Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[ThirdWizard]

I agree with this statement also. The problem is whether the Shadowdancer can HiPS, he can relative to the light source AND the viewer. A viewer who can see twice as much as fully illuminated squares (Low-Light Vision), can see a shadowdancer who thinks he is hiding in shadow, even if he is hiding in shadow.

He isn't hiding in the shadow, he's hiding in plain sight.

 

[Nail]

Right=> good distinction. And, seriously: there are plenty of shadows in a typical dungeon setting. Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[Aluvial]

Fotunately, the RAW does not agree with you. HiPS does not rely on being near a square of shadowy illumination, nor does it depend on the senses of the opponents.

Thank goodness! Talk about a headache.

RAW? I'm not sure what that is.

But it does. HiPS -- The shadowdancer must be within 10' of a shadow. What is considered shadow? It is obviously the perception of the viewer.

Low-Light Vision is a problem, but not the biggest. The biggest is determining which square is in what state, Dark, Shadow, or Lit at any given moment. When you start moving the light around, thus the shadows around, then you start having a headache.

I'm not suggesting that this isn't difficult, or unclear, I'm just reasoning that if you can see a Lit square twice as well as a normal creature, than a shadowdancer hiding must be relative to that person's percepeption, regardless of where the shadow actually lies. The Su part of the ability isn't the hiding, it is where the character can hide, the hiding doesn't change.

Aluvial

 

[KarinsDad]

I agree completely with you, except with the fact that you think that I disagree! What I'm saying is NOT that the Shadowdancer can't HiPS, clearly that is the special ability of the Shadowdancer, I'm not trying to take that away. He merely need's to be within 10' of a square with shadow. This is relative to the viewer though. Characters that have Low-Light Vision can see twice as far as normal. A square that is normally shadow to a normal viewing creature is considered brightly lit to a creature with LLV. IF the shadowdancer finds himself in a position where he is not within 10' of shadow, relative to the viewer, than he is illuminated (barring cover or invisibility).

Of-course, I've posted this in two of the three threads now....

And, it is still without merit according to RAW.

The requirement is NOT that he be within 10 feet of Shadowy Illumination, it is that he be within 10 feet of a shadow.

And for that matter, nobody has yet proven that an Elf or a Dwarf does not see the shadow. They do not see it as Shadowy Illumination (since they can see within that area just fine), but who says that they do NOT see the shadow at all?

Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

This gives them the ability to see clearly (although black and white), but it does not state anything about not seeing shades of gray (or lack thereof).

The closest approimation we have for comparison is black and white TV where the Dwarf WOULD see shadows as a different shade of gray (gray being differing amounts of black and white).

Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

Again, nothing here indicates that they would not see a shadow. In fact, it indicates that they can easily see shadows since their eyes are sensitive to light (and hence, differing colors and shades of light/shadow).


You appear to be confusing concealment from shadowy illumination with the mere pre-requisite of a shadow being there. Shadowy Illumination or the lack thereof is irrelevant to HiPS. Only the shadow being there is relevant. He is allowed to hide because the shadow is there.

 

[Nail]

HiPS -- The shadowdancer must be within 10' of a shadow. What is considered shadow? It is obviously the perception of the viewer.

Shucks,....I'm afraid our discussion has to end on this point, then.

I'd say that shadows exist, regardless of a viewer's ability to see through them. You disagree.

Ah well. I imagine your interpretation of the game reality makes things overly-complicated. But YMMV.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This gives them the ability to see clearly (although black and white), but it does not state anything about not seeing shades of gray (or lack thereof).

The closest approimation we have for comparison is black and white TV where the Dwarf WOULD see shadows as a different shade of gray (gray being differing amounts of black and white).

Irrelevant. Black and white TV is equivalent to human vision with the colors "turned off." Because of this, shadows appear as darker colors.

Darkvision is not human vision with the colors "turned off," because it does not rely on light at all. In darkvision, there are no shadows because they are an aspect of light.

 

[Aluvial]

Let's take this up on this other post, or at least have them joined...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2236437&posted=1#post2236437

Aluvial

OK, outvoted... we discuss on this thread.

Aluvial

 

[Nail]

Darkvision is not human vision with the colors "turned off," because it does not rely on light at all. In darkvision, there are no shadows because they are an aspect of light.

OT now, but: IMC, we treat darkvision as normal vision, but without the ability to see color, shadow, or tone. So I agree with Patyrn here: shadows don't appear to darkvision.......

...err, unless they are undead Shadows.

 

[Nail]

The requirement is NOT that he be within 10 feet of Shadowy Illumination, it is that he be within 10 feet of a shadow.

This bares repeating. And since there's no "game definition" of a shadow, we have to rely on DM/player judgement.

For those of you with Shadowdancers in your group: Has determining where shadows are really been a problem? Why not just "arm wave it"? A simple binary solution should do.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Okay I'll move to this thread, then, and bring my argument with me.

Here's an analogy. Say you had the ability to Hide in Plain Sight whenever you are near something green and are standing in an open field of grass at night. Does Darkvision negate this since the person with Darkvision can't see color? I think that's silly, myself.