Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[dcollins]

So a Light spell only negates the ability to HiPS in a 20 foot radius if there's nothing in that 20 foot radius that a torch would cause to cast a shadow. ... like a person, for example.

Excluding the Shadowdancer herself.

 

[moritheil]

Since shadows are relative to your vision capabilities, wouldn't darkvision (DV) negate HiPS?
(i.e. someone with darkvision isn't affected by shadows, within DV range, that is)

Sir or Madam,

I must refer you to Crothan's quote about logic and its interaction with DnD rules.

Simply because we are aware of the physical properties of light and shadow in the real world does not mean that any sensible conclusion we draw from them necessarily is true in the DnD world.

 

[Thanee]

Since shadows are relative to your vision capabilities, wouldn't darkvision (DV) negate HiPS?
(i.e. someone with darkvision isn't affected by shadows, within DV range, that is)

It's not very clear, but I'd say no, since HiPS is a magical ability and darkvision does not pierce magical darkness.

I would, however, let True Seeing or Deeper Darkvision negate the shadowdancer's HiPS, because then there is absolutely nothing, which could make the shadowdancer vanish from sight.

Bye
Thanee

 

[sfedi]

Sir or Madam,

Sir

I must refer you to Crothan's quote about logic and its interaction with DnD rules.

Simply because we are aware of the physical properties of light and shadow in the real world does not mean that any sensible conclusion we draw from them necessarily is true in the DnD world.

I'm not trying to see if this is realistic.
I'm trying to see (no pun intended) if the rules are consistent on this matter.

Whether I accept the inconsistency or not is another matter.

 

[Pinotage]

I concur with Thanee. Since HiPS is a supernatural ability, hence magical in nature, darkvision should not be able to penetrate it.

Pinotage

 

[TheEvil]

I can't honestly say I see any inconsistancies.
HiPS says you can hide in the open with nothing to hide behind as long as you are within 10' of a shadow that isn't your own.
HiPS says nothing about using the shadow you are near for concealment.
The existance of shadows doesn't depend on the their ability to be perceived. Again, shadows exist whether you can see them or not. They exist due to the nature of light. Would you argue that someone with darkvision would get no benefit from standing in the shade on a hot, sunny day because they couldn't see the shadow they were standing in?

 

[Thanee]

The real problem with HiPS is, that it says nothing about how the ability functions, which makes adjudicating questions like this rather difficult.

It only gives some hints:

- it is a magical effect (supernatural ability)
- it is based on shadow/darkness (vincinity to shadow required)

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Hide in Plain Sight is the ability to use the Hide skill under one specific set of circumstances: out in the open.

In order to accomplish this, you must have a shadow.

The question comes down to whether the shadow must be there for you to perform the abillity, or if the shadow must be there for an observer to not negate the ability.

Both sides on the surface appear to have merit.

The problem with Patryn's interpretation is that it ignores what is written about Hide In Plain Sight itself:

"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

The shadowdancer does NOT have to hide in the area of shadow, she merely has to be within 10 feet of it.

That would mean that EVERYONE, including humans, elves, and dwarves would see her in full light, not just dwarves and elves.

It is not a matter of cover or concealment. They do not come into the picture at all because the character does not have to be within that shadow, just near it. There is no visibility rule that negates this ability. She can use this ability on the brightest of sunny days as long as a shadow is within 10 feet.


This is a supernatural ability no different than any other supernatural ability.

It gives the character the ability to use the Hide skill if there is a shadow within 10 feet, it does not give the character the ability to use the Hide skill only if his opponent sees a shadow.

Or put another way, Hide In Plain Sight bypasses both condition #1 and condition #2 that Patryn listed. Cover and concealment are not required for this ability. The only thing required is a shadow within 10 feet that is not the user's shadow.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The problem with Patryn's interpretation is that it ignores what is written about Hide In Plain Sight itself:

"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

The shadowdancer does NOT have to hide in the area of shadow, she merely has to be within 10 feet of it.

That would mean that EVERYONE, including humans, elves, and dwarves would see her in full light, not just dwarves and elves.

Unless the ability lets you cloak yourself in shadow somehow. However, it doesn't mention this, so we can't assume it lets you do it.

The reason humans and others cannot see the SD is because, for them, the shadow exists. For dwarves and elves (possibly), the shadow does not exist.

 

[KarinsDad]

Unless the ability lets you cloak yourself in shadow somehow. However, it doesn't mention this, so we can't assume it lets you do it.

The reason humans and others cannot see the SD is because, for them, the shadow exists. For dwarves and elves (possibly), the shadow does not exist.

It does not matter if the shadow exists for the elves and dwarves or not.

The shadow exists. That is all that is needed.

The shadowdancer does not even have to be in the shadow.

The shadow just needs to exist.

A close analogy is that it is cooler in the shadows on a hot day. The Dwarf still feels cooler in the shadows, even if he cannot see the shadows.

Shadows exist in the game. The ability does not state anything about anyone's perception of shadows, it merely discusses what the character can do if the shadow is within 10 feet of him.

As you stated, the Hide skill requires that someone:

1) Not be under direct observation;
2) Have cover or concealment

The Hide in Plain Sight ability ignores both of these. Being within 10 feet of a shadow is not within cover or concealment. Being out in the open is being under direct observation.

Your entire position hinges on the shadow providing concealment in the case of humans and not providing concealment in the case of dwarves and elves, but concealment is not a pre-requisite of the ability.

A shadow within 10 feet is the pre-requisite of the ability.