Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

[ThirdWizard]

The Shadowdancer has to be within 10' of that shadowy illumination to HiPS.

Correction: Of a shadow. Not shadowy illumination.

 

[Nail]

Dwarves, half-orcs, etc., unless otherwise noted, are not color blind. .....

...unless they use Darkvision. The description of that ability explicitly calls that property out.

 

[Nail]

The shadow would probably appear dimmer as well, as their eyes would be less stimulated in that area compared to the surroundings.

Errr....?? This assertion is contradicted by RAW.

 

[Nail]

I'm not trying to argue here, I'm trying to account for the rule for creatures with Low-Light Vision.

...and those two rule-bits do not intersect in any way.

 

[TheEvil]

Yes they exist, independent of the viewer, BUT, the viewer with Low-Light Vision doubles the effect of existing illumination for that character.

I'm not trying to argue here, I'm trying to account for the rule for creatures with Low-Light Vision. The area of brightness for any light source is doubled for them. That's all. I see where others are taking this, but try to look at the perspective of the creature with LLV, he can see twice as far. His area of illumination is twice as much for any given light source. The Shadowdancer has to be within 10' of that shadowy illumination to HiPS.

Aluvial

Let's go ahead and reprint from the SRD again with some added emphasis:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

The text says some sort of shadow, not shadowy illumination, which is a well defined game term. How do you justify your belief that it means other then what it says? Especially if you consider the last sentence about hiding in their own shadow? I have seen nothing anywhere that indicates that a shadow cast by a creature EVER counts as shadowy illumination.

As far as perception and shadows, I think I will try a new tact to see if it clarifies things.
Take this situation: A well lit T-intersection in a dungeon. A SD is standing in the middle of the intersection within 10 of a shadow down left branche of the top of the T. A human with no line of sight to the shadow due to the corner is standing down the bottom of the T. Can the Shadowdancer HiPS?

 

[VorpalStare]

I have a relevant question for this thread:

Assume someone is hiding in plain sight (i.e. all of the prerequisites, whatever those end up being, are met) but is successfully spotted anyway. What does the spotter see?

Does he see the hiding person standing there in broad daylight, weaving shadows around himself so as to be (nearly) invisible? Does he appear to be displaced, with his image skulking around in the shadows a few feet away? Maybe he's an indistinct form somewhere in between?

Presumably, someone who fails to spot the hiding person with this ability perceives nothing in the spot where the hider actually is (even if this spot is brightly lit and featureless), but could probably bump into them much as one might stumble into an invisible person.

It would seem clear that someone who succeeds in a spot check has located the hider and can attack them normally.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see where others are taking this, but try to look at the perspective of the creature with LLV, he can see twice as far. His area of illumination is twice as much for any given light source. The Shadowdancer has to be within 10' of that shadowy illumination to HiPS.

You are equating "a shadow" to "Shadowy Illumination".

The first is not a game mechanic. The second is.

If HiPS was written "Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of shadowy illumination, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in the shadowy illumination of her own shadow.", then I would agree with you.


I think the "can HiPS next to the color green" is a good example. It does not matter if the viewer can see the green or not, it is merely important that the color green be there.


Let's take a different example:

PC1 is holding a lit torch in front of him (not above his head) and is walking in a very large totally dark cave.
PC2 is walking 5 feet behind PC1.

PC2 is in PC1's shadow.
PC2 is not in shadowy illumination (at least according to most DMs) and would not get a concealment miss chance if a goblin fired an arrow at him from the darkness over 200 feet away.

In order for you to rule that Shadow = Shadowy Illumination, you would have to give PC2 a concealment miss chance in this circumstance. I know of no DMs who do that in their game (i.e. keep track of light sources and whether PCs are standing in the shadows of other PCs).

 

[Aluvial]

Correction: Of a shadow. Not shadowy illumination.

I'm saying that is the same thing for game play. Yes, in reality there are shadows everywhere, but that poses the problem of how much of a shadow is needed to hide in. Someone earlier said, "well I can't hide in my own shadow so I'll just carry a thimble around and hide in that shadow.

That's not going to work for me. I say that shadowy and shadow are the same thing.

Aluvial

 

[Nail]

Assume someone is hiding in plain sight (i.e. all of the prerequisites, whatever those end up being, are met) but is successfully spotted anyway. What does the spotter see?

The hidden shadowdancer. Until the shadowdancer's next turn (in which, one presumes, he'll try to hide again), the "Spotter" can act normally.

How you chose to describe that is up to you.

It would seem clear that someone who succeeds in a spot check has located the hider and can attack them normally.

Yep.

 

[Sejs]

Assume someone is hiding in plain sight (i.e. all of the prerequisites, whatever those end up being, are met) but is successfully spotted anyway. What does the spotter see?

Does he see the hiding person standing there in broad daylight, weaving shadows around himself so as to be (nearly) invisible? Does he appear to be displaced, with his image skulking around in the shadows a few feet away? Maybe he's an indistinct form somewhere in between?

The way I run it, if you see through a shadowdancer HiPSing, it looks like the person is standing where they are, and their own shadow appears unnaturally stretched to merge with the shadow that they're using as their 'anchor'.