D&D 4E David Noonan on 4E "Cloudwatching" (Added Dave's newest comment from his blog)

[Shortman McLeod]

Every time a WotC designer tells me they're putting out a new edition to make things even better than before, I don't know whether to laugh or to want to slug them. In 9 years, we'll have seen 3 editions of D&D (by a conservative estimate - the more recent supplements, with reserve feats, Bo9s mechanics, swift and immediate actions, etc. have changed the game far more than the pseudo-edition change from 3E to 3.5) and 3 editions of SW - if every one of those was a significant improvement over what came before, then they either hadn't been trying too hard at the outset, or the edition coming out in May should be one small step down from the version you get to play in paradise after you die.

No doubt. Yet the bottom line, of course, is that new editions of the game have little to do with improving the game and everything to do with making more $$$. And that's fine--they're a company, I don't begrudge them that. But I wish they'd stop pretending that all the new editions are "for the good of the game".

 

[Thurbane]

Seriously, for a second.....

I imagine that the reason 1e succeeded so well (and D&D before it) was that it was easy to start, easy to play, and easy to make a new character if you died. Five minutes after the fatal sword thrust, you were right back in the game.

From 2e on, the time required to make a character has only increased. As a result, dying became less and less of a "fun" part of the game. Sure, in 1e, we would groan when we died, but it was par for the course at low levels. In a lot of ways, our "dying stories" stayed with us and got retold, if we managed to die in interesting fashions.

I tend to think that, without a real risk of death (as well as lesser risks, such as loss of equipment, etc.), D&D simply isn't rivetting enough (or at least not consistently). 2e convinced me to pull punches, because that was the DMing advice given, and it ruined the game. Now I don't pull punches, and the game is great. This is not a manifesto for unfair DMing, and I feel the same as a player.....I want a game that advocates letting the dice fall where they may.

In order to regain anything like the popularity of 1e, 4e would have to be easy to learn for newcomers, and quick to make characters for old hands, with a lot of added complexity that allows you to tweak the system the way you want, but can be ignored if you prefer to ignore it. You also need flavourful text that pulls you into trying the mechanics, and allows you to visualize it in your head.

Ultimately, if you want a broadly appealing game, you need to aim for easy play, fast play, and real risks/rewards.

All IMHO, of course.

RC, I think you've hit the nail right on the head there.

I could be wrong (in fact, I hope I'm wrong) but from what I've read 4E will make character creation/character bookkeeping a more involved and more time consuming process than in 3E, just as did 3E to 2E, 2E to 1E etc.

I just can't get my head around a system where you add more character options, a wider array of customisable abilities, 10 extra levels of non-epic progression, new/improved abilties at every level and extra mechanics for "per encounter" abilties in addition to "per day" abilties that could possibly be "easier and quicker" than the current edition.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Really? You should read the whole blog entry. I've been ridiculously happy all day.

As for the patronizing thing, well, that wasn't my intent. And it's embarrassing when you write for a living and can't get your point across properly. Sorry about that.

Lemme try again: The game is coming out in May. Until then, your reactions to it are your own. They don't change the inevitable release of the game. It might not be worth it to get completely amped up--positively or negatively--because May is a long ways off.

I promise not to get all amped up if WotC promises not to hype the game between now and May.

 

[Brewhammer]

Mike and I have recorded another podcast, but it hasn't "aired" yet. It's still being engineered.

Yes, I wish we could crank them out faster.

--Dave.

That's not what I meant. I know the podcasts have roughly had, more or less, a monthly schedule since they came out a year ago.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

As to what is and what isn't working in 3rd Ed... err, 3.5th Ed... most folks have already addressed this in their own games and found ways to move past the parts that don't work, or at least that don't work in their campaigns. It's what good DM's do.

On a side note - I chuckle to myself at times when I wonder how announcing 4th Ed. two or three years from now would've garnered far, far less rancor from the consumer base.

I've listened to the D&D Podcasts since they've been making them. That's come to a screeching halt now after the 4th Ed. announcement episode, where Dave and Mike kept hammering into us how 3.0 and 3.5 are 'old and busted' and how 4.0 is 'the new hotness.' Yet in every podcast prior they've been selling listeners on 3.5 products which we have now come to find were apparently 'old and busted.' And how folks are supposed to keep buying 3.5 leading up to the 4th Ed. release. And be sure to subscribe to D&DI for a nominal fee.

FFS, how many times are folks supposed to buy Ravenloft?

EXACTLY. I'm another one who's been listening to the podcasts from the jump, but after that last podcast announcing 4E, they've pretty much lost me. I still play 3.5 and I'm sorry I dont find it a hard game to run and the few problems I have with it I just adjust. that's what alot players and GM's do. 4E sounds less like a fix and more like, for the most part, a new system with just the minimum of the core D20 elements. For all that I might as well be playing another system.

and then theres the constant sniping at 3.5 by the designers, how THIS is clunky or counter intuitive, how THAT doenst really work. It doesnt work in YOUR game maybe, but it works just fine in mine. Also, and here's the important part, Gamers are fickle allies. The same streamlined, cleaned up rules that you output for 4E that everyone here seems to be gushing and falling over themselves to fawn over are going to be derided and complained about in about a year after 4E's release. Some of these same people who are going to jump all over this post in defense of 4E are going to be the nitpickiest, pedantic critics of your design.

There is no perfect game D00d. For me 3.5 and all of it's available resources are as close as it gets. It's customizable and malleable. So many different alternate mechanics for use with the type of game that you want to play. 4E will not be any better than 3.5, it'll just be different. Most of the people here who are head over heels for it will wind up STILL customizing it anyway. Different that's all, so yeah make your new game. WOTC is a company and needs to turn a profit, designers need to get paid. But dont pretend that 4E will be a better game for than 3.5, different? yeah. new? yeah. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm willing to bet while the majority will switch over to 4E, at least half of that majority will be throwing stones at the new shiny by the end of the year. Just like with 3.0 and 3.5, just like with any other system out there.

Personally I see things in 4E that I like and using the 4E SRD will probably use for my 3.5 game. We'll have to see. The way I see it though if there are going to be people blindly pushing 4E saying how great it is there are going to be people like me who are REALLY, REALLY leery of this new system. From the looks of it, WOTC isnt even trying to win over people like that and the rabid pro 4E fanbase has taken the attitude "if you dont like it go crawl into some place dark and DIE, you old fogey!!!" I'm in the process of learning about the game and so far I've seen more things that I dislike than like, but there are few things that I can see that are kinda cool. Not cool enough for me to buy the PHB when it comes out, but cool nonetheless.

 

[Grog]

No doubt. Yet the bottom line, of course, is that new editions of the game have little to do with improving the game and everything to do with making more $$$. And that's fine--they're a company, I don't begrudge them that. But I wish they'd stop pretending that all the new editions are "for the good of the game".

Why can't you accept that - in their opinion - the 4E designers are improving the game? Why do you have to go around making snide little comments about them and the people who like the direction they're going in, like you did in your "The WotC designers will be bashing 4e once 5e is announced" thread?

 

[Brewhammer]

and then theres the constant sniping at 3.5 by the designers, how THIS is clunky or counter intuitive, how THAT doesn't really work. It doesn't work in YOUR game maybe, but it works just fine in mine.

This is something that I think will hold many back from moving to 4.0 - because 3.5 is manageable and because there's eight tons of source material out for it now and it's all still relatively new.

All those 3.5 Ed. sourcebooks that folks have paid $30 - $35 a pop for might wind up coming back to bite 4th Ed. in its a$$. And will players really be so quick to replace them with $30 - $35 books when they know WotC will just replace them again in a few years?

 

[ShinHakkaider]

This is something that I think will hold many back from moving to 4.0 - because 3.5 is manageable and because there's eight tons of source material out for it now and it's all still relatively new.

All those 3.5 Ed. sourcebooks that folks have paid $30 - $35 a pop for might wind up coming back to bite 4th Ed. in its a$$. And will players really be so quick to replace them with $30 - $35 books when they know WotC will just replace them again in a few years?

From the amount of times people on this board have basically said "tough noogies" in regards to mine and others complaints about that very issue I'd have to say Yes, the 4E fanbase certainly will.

I mean I wont, but they will.

 

[Blackwind]

Making money and improving the game are not mutually exclusive.

 

[WayneLigon]

And will players really be so quick to replace them with $30 - $35 books when they know WotC will just replace them again in a few years?

3.5 already demonstrated that they will do just that.