Daze and Attacks of Opportunity

[KarinsDad]

The Daze spell states:

"This enchantment clouds the mind of a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it takes no actions. Humanoids of 5 or more HD are not affected. A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it."

During our game Sunday, a bunch of kobolds ran past one of our dazed fighters who had Combat Reflexes and I convinced our DM that although the fighter could not take an action, he could AoO (multiple times) since actions occur during your turn and since attackers get no special advantage against it (i.e. he does not lose his ability to threaten around him).

My logic was that Attacks of Opportunity are not actions because actions occur on your turn, are in the Actions section (i.e. full round actions, standard actions, move actions, free actions), "An attack of opportunity is a free melee attack that does not use up any of your actions", etc.

However, I wanted to make sure that I did not mislead my DM.

Is this the actual rule (and I want a rules answer here, not an opinion based on what you think should happen to a "mind clouded" Dazed creature)?

Thanks.

EDIT: Daze in the DMG states "the creature is unable to act normally", but this could mean anything. For example, would he be unable to stand, unable to breathe, unable to hold his weapon, etc.? I think this sentence has to basically be ignored since it is totally subjective and non-specific.

 

[Thanee]

The problem is, there probably is no clear rules answer, since they often use terms, like "act normally", which are not defined in a clear way. I guess they think it's obvious enough.

The D&D rulebooks are no math books, where everything is well-defined.

I'd consider the Attack of Opportunity as an action, tho. There are several types of actions, which can be performed outside of one's turn, so there obviously are exceptions to the general rule, that you only can do so during your turn. Attacks of Opportunity seem to be one such exception, where an action is performed outside of your turn. In any case, if you actively do something, that would be acting from your side, and making an Attack of Opportunity is active, as you can freely choose to make one or not, within situational limits, of course.

A melee attack, which you perform during an Attack of Opportunity, is defined as a Standard Action by the rules, so it seems that an attack is an action, just that the Attack of Opportunity is not a Standard Action, but free (not a Free Action either, however), but it's still an action, since you obviously act then.

The condition does not say, that you lose your actions for the round, it says, that it prevents you to act normally. Normally you get to act, when someone provokes an Attack of Opportunity in your Threatened Area. Daze denies that.

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act.

You do not want to say, that a paralyzed character can make Attacks of Opportunity, or do you?

So this "act" obviously does not refer to "Free Action, Move Action, Standard Action, or Full-Round Action", but is meant to be read as a more general kind of action.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I believe you're wrong, but not for the reason you think you were.

The reason you should not have been able to take attacks of opportunity is not because an attack of opportunity is an action, and therefore proscribed by Daze.

Rather, when you are dazed, you no longer threaten an area:

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action.

Since you are not allowed to make melee attacks (you cannot, until the Daze is over, take any action), you no longer threaten any squares. Therefore, you cannot make AoOs on any targets which might normally provoke an AoO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A melee attack, which you perform during an Attack of Opportunity, is defined as a Standard Action by the rules, so it seems that an attack is an action, just that the Attack of Opportunity is not a Standard Action, but free (not a Free Action either, however), but it's still an action, since you obviously act then.

An attack is an action because it's a standard action, so even when it's not any sort of action, it's still an action?

The condition does not say, that you lose your actions for the round, it says, that it prevents you to act normally.

Replace 'Dazed' with 'Stunned' for the sake of argument, and assume IUS or Natural Weapons.

Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

No longer prevented from acting; just can't 'take actions'.

Since you are not allowed to make melee attacks (you cannot, until the Daze is over, take any action), you no longer threaten any squares.

You can't make melee attacks that require an action. You can still, arguably, make melee attacks that don't require an action... like an AoO. Since you could make an AoO into a threatened square, it's a square into which you could make an attack, and thus you aren't prohibited from threatening it

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

For what it's worth, I would not have allowed taking an AoO while dazed. It just has the wrong "feel" to it, and the rules are not ironclad enough to allow AoOs while dazed.

 

[DreamChaser]

A big thank you to Hypersmurf for proving that common sense has to prevail sometimes

If the same vague wording exists in daze and stun but stun is more clearly a state in which it is impossible to act, then daze must have similar limits.

Unable to act is, IMO, unable to act. An AoO is an immediate action--they didn't exist when the rules were first written (or revised) but they are free actions that can be taken when it is not your turn which is the very definition of immediate action. Still, they are actions and thus dazed and stunned people cannot take them.

DC

 

[Hypersmurf]

A big thank you to Hypersmurf for proving that common sense has to prevail sometimes

If the same vague wording exists in daze and stun but stun is more clearly a state in which it is impossible to act, then daze must have similar limits.

[blink] Is that what I did?

I thought I was suggesting that perhaps AoOs are not prohibited while stunned, even though they might be while dazed...

But maybe I was doing what you suggest after all...

-Hyp.

 

[DreamChaser]

see, hype. you're better at this than you could ever have imagined.

I know that you were exploiting the vague wording of the rules as you indicated.

my point was that by illuminating that contradiction (given the fact that daze is a less serious form of stun) you successfully showed that it is not always possible to opperate strictly on the phrasing but also deal with the spirit of the rules.

i would have ruled against Karen's Dad...not because the rules STATE that a dazed person cannot make AoO but because they IMPLY it by indicating that the person can defend but not take any action (AoO does not fit into the retaining armor class category. a person still has their full armor class while unarmed which means that there is no connection between the ability to make AoO and the ability to utilize your full armor class).

Plus, attempting to exploit such a hole in the wording of the rules just seems dirty to me. Like a burglar suing a homeowner for a poorly maintained deck that didn't hold him while he was scaling it to break into the house. Yes, technically the homeowner is responsible for keeping his home safe for visitors but COME ON! )

DC

 

[Thanee]

An attack is an action because it's a standard action, so even when it's not any sort of action, it's still an action?

It's an action in the sense, that you act then, but it's neither a Free Action, nor a Move Action, Standard Action, or Full-Round Action. The term "action" is just meant as a literal description not as a game term there.

Replace 'Dazed' with 'Stunned' for the sake of argument, and assume IUS or Natural Weapons.

How about 'Paralyzed'?

I think it's really all the same... dazed, stunned, paralyzed... they all prevent you from acting, taking actions, or whatever... it's all the same. They all are meant to prevent anything active on your part (minus paralyzed and mental actions).

Bye
Thanee

P.S. @DreamChaser: AoO are clearly not Immediate Actions.

 

[KarinsDad]

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

As I implied in my first post, I wasn't really looking for a "spirit of the game" type answer. I was looking for a literal rules answer and I do think it is there, just not obvious.

The basic question comes down to whether an AoO is an action or not and whether the condition of daze prevents even that.

1) "Action" in the core rules is a definitive game mechanic as per the definition on page 304. It is fairly well defined in multiple locations as what your character can do on his turn, not outside of his turn.

2) "An attack of opportunity is a free melee attack that does not use up any of your actions".

3) Although a melee attack is defined in the Standard Action section, it can be used during a Full Round attack action or it can be used during an AoO. So, it is not solely a standard action.

4) Page 141 "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity." There is a definitive difference called out between actions (which occurs on a characters turn) and melee attacks in several places.

5) "A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it." This implies that an attacker could not get the special advantage of not being threatened by the dazed character.

All of these seem to indicate that it can be done, but they do not outright state it.

6) "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action."

However, I think number 6 here is the one that indirectly prevents it as a rule.

You cannot make a melee attack on your action, hence, you do not threaten the squares around you on your action. If you do not threaten them during your turn, how can you threaten them when it is not your turn?

So, my conclusion is that an AoO is NOT an action.

However, you can only threaten squares around you if you can make a melee attack into them, especially on your action. Being dazed is no different than if you had a missile weapon out, or no weapon at all (without the unarmed attack ability) because you do not threaten.

You only threaten around you if you have a melee weapon and you are capable of performing a melee attack on your next action (i.e. some condition does not prevent it).

Hence, the Confusion spell would also prevent AoOs because you do not yet know if you can perform a melee attack on your next turn.

Thanks again guys for getting my juices flowing a little.