Dazzed until grabbed?

Bayuer

First Post
Ok, another question. Man I've got problematic players:)

I'm grabbed by Gelatinous Cube. I'm dazed until I escape. It's my turn. I escaped. Can I make other actions normaly allowed in my turn? Or just my turn end. Ewentualy I take Action Point (I'm still dazed at this action?).
 

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Gruns

Explorer
Dazed and confused.

Ok, another question. Man I've got problematic players:)

I'm grabbed by Gelatinous Cube. I'm dazed until I escape. It's my turn. I escaped. Can I make other actions normaly allowed in my turn? Or just my turn end. Eventualy I take Action Point (I'm still dazed at this action?).

If I recall, this is one of those situations that isn't directly specified in the rules. The general consensus seems to be that if at anytime during your turn you are Dazed, you get 1 action. If you somehow get Dazed in the middle of your turn (or become un-Dazed in the middle of your turn), and have already taken 1 or more actions, you have no more actions. This more or less follows the way Slow works, which actually mentions what happens if you become Slowed mid-turn in the rules.
I'm not sure what you mean by your second question regarding being Dazed when you take an Action Point. Using the Action Point simply gets you another Standard action to use. If you're asking in regards to "do you still grant Combat Advantage" due to the Dazed condition, then no, since you are no longer Dazed, due to the escape.
Later!
Gruns
 

Bayuer

First Post
Ok. There are many diffrenst situations. What if I start turn beign grabbed by Geletionous Cube and dazed. I use Action Point and succesfull esaceped. What actions do I have now?
 

abyssaldeath

First Post
I would say you get your normal actions. That's one of the benefits of spending an action point. Most people usually think about using action points after your you use up your normal actions, but a lot of times it is more beneficial to use it before.
 

Gruns

Explorer
2 then!

Ok. There are many diffrenst situations. What if I start turn beign grabbed by Geletionous Cube and dazed. I use Action Point and succesfull esaceped. What actions do I have now?

Well, if you're going with the ruling that if you're Dazed when you start your turn, you only get 1 Action, then you still only get a total of 2 actions, regardless of whether the Action Point action was used to escape or not.

DM: "Ok Gruns it's your turn. You're currently grabbed by the cube, and thus Dazed. You have 1 action this turn."

Gruns: "I use an Action Point to get an extra Move Action. I use this action to try to escape. (dice rolling) I escape! With my other action, I stab the cube in the face."

I can see where some DM's might want to let you have your full set of actions after the Action Point escape, but I am not one of those DMs. This is like a kick in the groin to the gelatinous cube, as a big part of its gameplan is to grab people and limit their actions!

Yes I'm aware that gelatinous cubes have neither faces nor groins. At least not their own.

Later!
Gruns
 

Gruns

Explorer
I would say you get your normal actions. That's one of the benefits of spending an action point.

It is? My PHB only mentions that you Gain an Extra Action. Nothing in there about gaining 3 extra actions, or being able to use it on your turn but really slightly before the actual start of your turn to avoid bad monster effects. If you want to rule this way, you're of course more than welcome to. But honestly, there's nothing magical or special about action points. It's simply an extra single action. And sometimes paragon paths and warlords and certain humans like to make them a little spicier...

Later!
Gruns
 

Festivus

First Post
Action Points can be used at any time, and you don't lose your remainging other actions just because you spend an AP. (I can't recall where I read this currently but it's been stated somewhere... perhaps here on the ENWorld forums by one of the designers)

I would reward the clever player for the expenditure of the Action Point to describe escape (AP), shift, attack. What would happen if they didn't escape? The player ends up with a lost action point and they are still dazed... but could try once again to escape with the remaining action.

Action Points are expensive and rarer than encounter powers... there should be an upside to using one.
 

Gruns

Explorer
Yes and...

Action Points can be used at any time, and you don't lose your remainging other actions just because you spend an AP. (I can't recall where I read this currently but it's been stated somewhere... perhaps here on the ENWorld forums by one of the designers)

First, Action Points can't be used at any time. They are a Free Action, but they can only be used during your turn. This is a big difference from other Free Actions. Without this restriction you could theoretically attack on other people's turns, or maybe try to escape from a Gelatinous Cube before your turn comes around... And second, nobody is saying you lose the remainder of your actions just because you spend an Action Point.

I would reward the clever player for the expenditure of the Action Point to describe escape (AP), shift, attack. What would happen if they didn't escape? The player ends up with a lost action point and they are still dazed... but could try once again to escape with the remaining action.

Your example is peculiar... That player could simply use their single action(while Dazed) to escape. They get to Shift as part of the escape. Then they could spend an Action Point to attack.

Action Points are expensive and rarer than encounter powers... there should be an upside to using one.

The upside being an extra action. Along with some other potential goodness, depending on your job, race, or who you know. What they shouldn't do is let you skirt rules issues or go above and beyond what you normally can do. (Other than take an extra action, of course.)

Later!
Gruns
 

James McMurray

First Post
There is nothing in the rules to support the idea that you are allotted your actions at the start of the turn. So, following the advice of the DMG and the designers, I have always said that if you become undazed on your turn you will get your full remaining actions.

The link between Slow and Daze is nonexistent. Slow says what happens if you become slowed in the middle of a move. That has nothing to do with what occurs when you lose an effect. It works to back up the claim that you lose extra actions if you're dazed in the middle of your turn, but nothing else.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
The thing is, once you're no longer dazed, the restriction on what you may do during your turn no longer applies. Like any other restrictive condition, once it is removed, you no longer suffer its effects. If you remove immobilized, you can move; if you remove dazed you can take the actions it previously limited.

You don't 'get action points' at the beginning of your turn to spend, you just have limitations on what you can do. Remove one limitation, and it no longer applies.
 

Festivus

First Post
First, Action Points can't be used at any time. They are a Free Action, but they can only be used during your turn. This is a big difference from other Free Actions. Without this restriction you could theoretically attack on other people's turns, or maybe try to escape from a Gelatinous Cube before your turn comes around... And second, nobody is saying you lose the remainder of your actions just because you spend an Action Point.

Nitpick, but yes, I agree it's only for use during your turn. I thought that was assumed given the topic was about a persons turn.


Your example is peculiar... That player could simply use their single action(while Dazed) to escape. They get to Shift as part of the escape. Then they could spend an Action Point to attack.

No, I said they could use an action point to escape, then use their full remaining actions (move, minor, standard) afterwards.


The upside being an extra action. Along with some other potential goodness, depending on your job, race, or who you know. What they shouldn't do is let you skirt rules issues or go above and beyond what you normally can do. (Other than take an extra action, of course.)

Later!
Gruns

I dont think what I described is above or beyond what is in the scope of the rules. Darn if I can't find that reference.
 

Journeymanmage

First Post
There is nothing in the rules to support the idea that you are allotted your actions at the start of the turn. So, following the advice of the DMG and the designers, I have always said that if you become undazed on your turn you will get your full remaining actions.

Sure there is...
PHB: pg 268
Player's turn begins:
-------------------
"When your turn comes up in the initiative order, it's time for you to act. Your turn has three parts: the start of your turn, the actions on your turn, and the end of your turn."

The Start of Your Turn
"Before you act, you keep track of certain effects. The start of your turn always takes place, even if you are unconscious, and it takes no time in the game world."
...
- Ongoing damage
- Regeneration
- Other Effects: Deal with any other effects that occur at the start of your turn.
- End Effects: Some effects end automatically at the start of your turn.
- No Actions: You can't take any actions at the start of your turn.
...
Actions on Your Turn
During your turn, you can take a few actions. ....
- Actions on Your Turn
-- Your Actions: You get the following three actions on your turn:
* Standard action
* Move action
* Minor action

-- Free action: You can take any number of free actions on your turn.
-- Any Order
-- Substitute Action
-- Extra Action: You can take an extra action by spending an action point (see pg 286) ~note: Spending an Action Point is a Free action~
-- Other Combatants' Actions

The End of Your Turn

-----------------

Dazed (pg 276):
* Grant CA
* You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn.
*You can't flank an enemy

-- Gelatinous Cube: Engulf: Ongoing 10 Acid damage and Dazed until escape.

-----

So the Cube has engulfed the target (we'll call him Bob) and Bob Dazed.
So on Bob's turn:
- Start Bob's turn (The Start of Your Turn)
-- Ongoing Damage (in this case the Cube's 10 Acid)
-- Regeneration
-- Other effects: >Dazed<
-- End Effects: Not for dazed
-- No Actions: Can not use an action point yet.

Summary: Bob is Dazed and can not take any action until next "phase of turn" ... move to next "phase"
Status: Dazed and taking 10 Acid

- Actions on Your Turn
Your Actions: You get the following three actions on your turn.
*Standard action
*Move action
*Minor action

>Dazed< : You can either take a:
*Standard action /or/ *Move action /or/ *Minor action

Specific over-rides General. Bob is Dazed take >1< action.

Now here's where we have the "core" issue: (Bob being inside the Cube) ;)

We are at the beginning of the "Actions on Your Turn" phase of Bob's turn.

Bob is Dazed, as such he is assigned only 1 action instead of 3. Bob can take any number of "free actions" on his turn. Spending an Action Point is a "free action" that gives him an action (Standard/Move/Minor).

-- The argument seems to be "Bob spends an AP to move/escape from the Cube. As he is free he gets all 3 of his actions."

The rules list implies: "Bob's gets his actions (x,y,z), but is Dazed so gets 1 action (x or y or z). Bob can spend an AP to get a 2nd action (x or y or z). Bob may spend these in any order."

The rules list does not say Bob gets 1 (x or y or z) action, Bob spends an AP to escape, Bob now gets back the 2 remaining (x, y or z type) actions.

---
Summary the rules seem built in such a way that in this case:
Bob is dazed, during his turn he is given his standard allotment of 3 actions (standard/move/minor), but dazed reduces that to 1 action (standard or move or minor). The spending of the AP will give Bob another 1 action (Pick a standard or move or minor). Escaping does not restore the lost 2 actions.

If you follow the rules in the order they are written, Bob has 1 action, he gains a 2nd action if he spends an AP.

----
Now as a GM I don't have an issue playing it as Use an AP, escape (if skilled/lucky), then resolve Dazed and give Bob his full allotment of actions. But that's an opinion / personal GM style choice.

It's similar to a post a month or 2 ago ...
"Start of Your Turn"
Ongoing Damage
Regeneration
... etc.

Taking to Ongoing Damage could cancel Regeneration because the target is unconscious. (pg 293 Regen does not work if you are at 0 or less hp) Seems most people don't have an issue having Regeneration go before Ongoing Damage. ... works for my game.

Oh and just for completeness:

"Phase 3" of Taking Your Turn
- End of Your Turn
-- Saving Throws
-- Check Actions Spent
-- End Effects (Some effects end automatically at the end of your turn)
-- No Actions: (paraphrase): You're done now, nothing to see here, move along, move along.
 

James McMurray

First Post
Dazed says nothing about the start of your turn. A bullet list is not a sequential list.

If you disagree, that's great. There's another thread that went for 50 bajillion pages that I'd direct you to if I could search. Suffice it to say that I disagree with your circumstantial evidence, but am too lazy to argue it any more than has already been doine, especially since everything that can be said already has been, several times over.

If it's fun for you, do it. But the rules don't say to.
 

Eldorian

First Post
Dazed says nothing about the start of your turn. A bullet list is not a sequential list.

Your turn has three parts: the start of your turn, the actions on your turn, and the end of your turn."


Seems sequential to me. And - Other Effects: Deal with any other effects that occur at the start of your turn. Happens during the Start of your turn phase, and seems to encompass being dazed.

Please don't post another cop out.
 

James McMurray

First Post
As I said, read the other thread if you want my (and others') thoughts on the subject. Your argument has been made by others before, there's nothing new in it to refute. Until we get new rules that relate to this, it's likely to stay that way because all of the ground has been covered repeatedly.
 

Journeymanmage

First Post
*(note: comments are meant in a neutral / friendly tone. we're talking about a game ;) )

Dazed says nothing about the start of your turn. A bullet list is not a sequential list.

If you disagree, that's great. There's another thread that went for 50 bajillion pages that I'd direct you to if I could search. Suffice it to say that I disagree with your circumstantial evidence, but am too lazy to argue it any more than has already been doine, especially since everything that can be said already has been, several times over.

If it's fun for you, do it. But the rules don't say to.

Dazed says nothing about the start of your turn.
Does not need to do so ....
The "Start of your turn" is "the start of your turn". Reviewing what effects your character are under is part of what you do at the start of your turn. At the start of "Bob's" turn he is engulfed by Mr. Cube ... resolving the engulfed effect leads to ... Bob will be Dazed (and suffering from acid) this turn. The Dazed condition has an impact on the character later in his turn. (see: "Phase 2": Actions on your turn.)

If you disagree, that's great. There's another thread that went for 50 bajillion pages
Yes, which is why I mentioned the:
"Start of Your Turn": Ongoing Damage vs Regeneration thread, I'm >assuming< that's what your mentioning. (I don't have the search feature either)

Suffice it to say that I disagree with your circumstantial evidence, but am too lazy to argue it any more than has already been doine
I don't know if I'd call quoting directly from the rule book as circumstantial evidence, unless you are looking for the book to explicitly spell out every case of "If you are <fill in effect> and you (do / don't do) the following ... etc.." It was a point-by-point following of the RAW. Trying to imply that just because something is not explicitly spelled out in part of the rules is not the best defense. (nowhere in the rules does it say "Don't Cheat" ;) )

If it's fun for you, do it.
I agree that for the players it is more fun (or I hope it is) to let them use an AP to break free and give them a full set of actions. I even did so when the party came to this encounter. I even said:
"Now as a GM I don't have an issue playing it as Use an AP, escape (if skilled/lucky), then resolve Dazed and give Bob his full allotment of actions. But that's an opinion / personal GM style choice."

But the rules don't say to.
But they do. And strongly so, compared to: implying that because the rules don't spell out every possible option / effect / scenario, to the last detail, that "it's not covered".
 

James McMurray

First Post
No, they don't. They really don't. Please point me to where it says you're allotted x actions at the start of your turn, and/or where it says that conditions you no longer suffer from continue to negatively impact you. You can't, because it doesn't. You choose to interpret it that way, and that's fine, but it doesn't make it reality.
 

Keenath

Explorer
Interesting question, but I'm with JourneymanMage. Dazed says "you can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn". Once you've begun your turn, that effect has taken place. Removing the daze after the start of your turn doesn't change the fact that you were effected by it during your turn, and the effect was that you could only take one action during your turn.

Take a different example: Suppose I've been hit by a weakened condition. Each attack deals half damage, right? Now suppose I have a power that says "Hit: Deal XdX damage and remove one condition on you that a save ends". The two effects are essentially simultaneous. It doesn't say the condition is removed at the end of my attack. But I should think it's clear that the attack we're resolving is still weakened even if the Weakened condition is removed as a result of that hit.

Similarly, the effect of the Dazed condition wouldn't be removed from the turn you're still resolving just becuase you removed the condition.

This doesn't necessarily only apply to Cubes, though. The ruling will apply any time you have the ability to remove an ongoing condition during your turn. For example, the Dreadnaught's "Unfailing Resources" ability, which allows you to spend HP to make an extra save as a free action.

In any case, doesn't this apply even if action points aren't in use? If I use my single action and escape, it's an obvious question whether I now have a move and minor left, or nothing left.
 

Journeymanmage

First Post
No, they don't. They really don't. Please point me to where it says you're allotted x actions at the start of your turn, and/or where it says that conditions you no longer suffer from continue to negatively impact you. You can't, because it doesn't. You choose to interpret it that way, and that's fine, but it doesn't make it reality.

Okay:

PHB, pg 268, column 2, Heading "Taking Your Turn"
"When your turn comes up in the initiative order, it's time for you to act. Your turn has three parts: the start of your turn, the actions on your turn, and the end of your turn."

Sub-heading "The Start of Your Turn"
"Before you act, you keep track of certain effects. ..."
Box: "The Start of Your Turn"
...
- Other Effects: Deal with any other effects that occur at the start of your turn.
- End Effects: Some effects end automatically at the start of your turn.
- No Actions: You can't take any actions at the start of your turn.

-----

PHB, pg 269, column 1, sub-heading "Actions on Your Turn"
"During your turn, you can take a few actions. You decide what to do with each ...."

Box: "Actions on Your Turn"
- Your Actions: You get the following three actions on your turn:
*Standard Action
*Move Action
*Minor Action

- Free Actions: ...
- Any Order: ...
- Substitute Actions: ...
- Extra Actions: You can take an extra action by spending an action point (page 286).
- .....

------

Please point me to where it says you're allotted x actions at the start of your turn,
Page 269, column 1, sub-heading Actions on Your Turn, Box: Actions on Your Turn, - Your Actions: You get the following three actions on your turn: Standard Action, Move Action, Minor Action

I believe that's fairly straight forward.

and/or where it says that conditions you no longer suffer from continue to negatively impact you.
Pge 268, column 2, Heading: Taking Your Turn, sub-heading The Start of Your Turn, Box: The Start of Your Turn, - Ongoing Effects, - Other Effects, - End of Effects, - No Actions

In our example, Bob has just been engulfed by Mr. Cube. Mr. Cube ends "it's" turn. Bob is next up in the initiative order:
Start of <Bob's> Turn:
-Ongoing Damage: Yes, 10 Acid from Mr. Cube
-Regeneration: NA
-Other Effects: Bob is Engulfed with the affect that he is Dazed. The effects of being Dazed have an impact on the 2nd part of "Taking <Bob's> Turn"
-End Effects: ...
-No Actions: Bob can't take any actions at the start of <Bob's> turn. He can not use an AP to do anything yet.

PHB, pg 269, column 1, "Phase 2" of "Taking <Bob's> Turn" ... "Actions on <Bob's> Turn"
Bob is now allocated "the following three actions" (Standard/Move/Minor)
Bob is Dazed PHB, pg 277, column 1, Heading: Conditions, Box: Dazed, - You can take either a standard action, a move action or a minor action on your turn (you can also take free actions.)

- 1st item: Bob is allocated 3 actions at the Start of the "Actions on Your Turn" which is reduced to 1 action per Dazed.

where it says that conditions you no longer suffer from continue to negatively impact you.
Turning that question around, show us where it says you gain those actions back....

At the Start of "Actions on Your Turn" you are given 3 actions (Your Actions: You get the following three actions)", but they are reduced by the effect of Dazed to 1 action. Dazed: "You can take either a standard action, a move action or a minor action on your turn".

Yes, if Bob escapes Mr. Cube, he ends the Dazed effect. But during the "Start of <Bob's> Turn", Other Effects:, Bob was Engulfed / Dazed. That status/effect has an impact on the next part of Bob's turn. Note during part 1 of Bob's turn the final item is "-No Actions: You can't take any actions at the start of your turn."

In the 2nd part of Bob's turn, during the allocation of Actions, "Actions on <Bob's> Turn", "-Your Actions", Bob is allocated 3 actions which are reduced to 1 action per Dazed.
 
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Journeymanmage

First Post
Side note: "Taking Your Turn" ... 3 parts ...
- Start of Your Turn
- Actions on Your Turn
- End of your Turn

Last item in box under "Start of Your Turn"
- No Actions

First item in box under "Actions on Your Turn"
- Your Actions: You get the following three actions on your turn: ...
 

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