DCC Level 0 Character Funnel is a Bad Concept

[aramis erak]

Technically…in B/X you get more XP for treasure found than dealing with monsters. That “also” in your quote.

It's seldom been as much in BX games I've run... as if they're not in lair, most critters don't have much, if any, treasure.

 

[overgeeked]

It's seldom been as much in BX games I've run... as if they're not in lair, most critters don't have much, if any, treasure.

Right. Which is why you avoid fights as much as possible, stack the odds in your favor, and flood the underground dungeon without bothering with fighting. Clean up the survivors and hope nothing aquatic moved in. This is a thread about DCC. Not B/X.

 

[payn]

"Can be," not "is." I didn't enjoy it when I tried it in the 80's... and it was a concept, tho' not called a funnel, that some had. It's not inherently fun. For some, it's inherently overload. For others, it reduces the thing they find most important - identification with the PC. For me, it was a hassle of numbers... I'd rather start higher level than start with multiple PCs, but BITD, it wasn't uncommon for us to take in 2 PCs each...

It is a mindset thing for sure. I'm not locked into one style and can adjust my expectations for different games. This is a thing that will stick in folks maws that cant.

 

[Retreater]

I guess my disconnect comes from what "OSR" and "classic gaming" means to me. I did not come of age in the Gygax era. My first D&D rulebook was the AD&D 2nd edition PHB, and I didn't really get deep into the hobby until the mid-90s. In my group during that era, a character death was something that impacted the story. Those of you who know me from these boards might be surprised that I haven't always been a Killer DM - in my earlier games it was very rare for a PC to die.
We didn't play a style of game where mutation, mutilation, or death was done for laughs. In a board game like HeroQuest where your character was just a nameless token on a board, it was okay. But in a roleplaying game, where really the only thing you had was your character, their personality, and interaction with the campaign world, it was something to be avoided. In a game when a DM can roll a 1d6, count around a table to pick out Player #x (where x=the number of the player he rolled randomly) and then a roll a 1d4 to pick out Character #y (where y=the number of your character he rolled randomly) and you just die - that isn't my kind of game.
Same thing at higher levels in DCC. You roll on a random chart and you accidently lop off your own head or get pulled into the Nine Hells. I don't like that kind of stuff being left up to chance. If dying is the result of a random chart roll, then what use is there in skilled play, good tactics, cooperation, or any of the other things we admire about this hobby? When the very things that we celebrate about the hobby don't matter, the feel turns into a parody of the game.

 

[Reynard]

When the very things that we celebrate about the hobby don't matter, the feel turns into a parody of the game.

Although the specific things that irritate you about this are different for me, I get where you are coming from. While I am very much a "dice fall where they may" GM, and interested in the story that emerges from play, I don't actually like completely arbitry and senseless results. I want to be able to trust the dice to create something I as a GM can interpret as coherent. So even though I am okay with ignoble PC death and strange happenings, I don't generally like a good, anything goes approach.

Unless I have introduced the Deck of Many Things into the campaign, which I am won't to do from time to time. Or am playing Gamma World. But if I am running something recognizable as a "serious" game I want the potential outcomes to land within a range that is consistent with both the tone and the genre of the game I set out to run.

 

[Parmandur]

I guess my disconnect comes from what "OSR" and "classic gaming" means to me. I did not come of age in the Gygax era. My first D&D rulebook was the AD&D 2nd edition PHB, and I didn't really get deep into the hobby until the mid-90s. In my group during that era, a character death was something that impacted the story. Those of you who know me from these boards might be surprised that I haven't always been a Killer DM - in my earlier games it was very rare for a PC to die.
We didn't play a style of game where mutation, mutilation, or death was done for laughs. In a board game like HeroQuest where your character was just a nameless token on a board, it was okay. But in a roleplaying game, where really the only thing you had was your character, their personality, and interaction with the campaign world, it was something to be avoided. In a game when a DM can roll a 1d6, count around a table to pick out Player #x (where x=the number of the player he rolled randomly) and then a roll a 1d4 to pick out Character #y (where y=the number of your character he rolled randomly) and you just die - that isn't my kind of game.
Same thing at higher levels in DCC. You roll on a random chart and you accidently lop off your own head or get pulled into the Nine Hells. I don't like that kind of stuff being left up to chance. If dying is the result of a random chart roll, then what use is there in skilled play, good tactics, cooperation, or any of the other things we admire about this hobby? When the very things that we celebrate about the hobby don't matter, the feel turns into a parody of the game.

Higher level DCC is more about skilled play, but part of the skill involved is playing the odds.

 

[payn]

If dying is the result of a random chart roll, then what use is there in skilled play, good tactics, cooperation, or any of the other things we admire about this hobby? When the very things that we celebrate about the hobby don't matter, the feel turns into a parody of the game.

For me its about risk and reward. Pushing the limits and trying to keep your character alive to tell about it. I do think DCC is rather poor at the campaign style play, though its fully loaded with levels if you want to try. I prefer funnels into a module, or especially a dungeon tournament. If I am looking for long term engagement, I use another system.

 

[dragoner]

I guess my disconnect comes from what "OSR" and "classic gaming" means to me. I did not come of age in the Gygax era. My first D&D rulebook was the AD&D 2nd edition PHB, and I didn't really get deep into the hobby until the mid-90s. In my group during that era, a character death was something that impacted the story. Those of you who know me from these boards might be surprised that I haven't always been a Killer DM - in my earlier games it was very rare for a PC to die.
We didn't play a style of game where mutation, mutilation, or death was done for laughs. In a board game like HeroQuest where your character was just a nameless token on a board, it was okay. But in a roleplaying game, where really the only thing you had was your character, their personality, and interaction with the campaign world, it was something to be avoided. In a game when a DM can roll a 1d6, count around a table to pick out Player #x (where x=the number of the player he rolled randomly) and then a roll a 1d4 to pick out Character #y (where y=the number of your character he rolled randomly) and you just die - that isn't my kind of game.
Same thing at higher levels in DCC. You roll on a random chart and you accidently lop off your own head or get pulled into the Nine Hells. I don't like that kind of stuff being left up to chance. If dying is the result of a random chart roll, then what use is there in skilled play, good tactics, cooperation, or any of the other things we admire about this hobby? When the very things that we celebrate about the hobby don't matter, the feel turns into a parody of the game.

I did come of age in that time, I have a Holmes Basic on my shelf right next to my PHB and M&M bought around '79. The OSR, as Aramis stated above is younger and different than then, focused around some certain style of play that wasn't that prevalent. The regular non-killer DM was normal, and character death did impact the game even then; for the groups I saw. Though there was the same sort of arguing, and the internet has been a sort of bully pulpit, I sort of think the heyday of the OSR might be over.

 

[overgeeked]

I guess my disconnect comes from what "OSR" and "classic gaming" means to me. I did not come of age in the Gygax era. My first D&D rulebook was the AD&D 2nd edition PHB, and I didn't really get deep into the hobby until the mid-90s. In my group during that era, a character death was something that impacted the story.

What makes you think character death in the OSR-style of play doesn't impact the story? Of course it does. It's just not considered a fail state of the game as with modern games. One character dies and the player makes a new one. But, importantly, that death effects the story. It always does.

Those of you who know me from these boards might be surprised that I haven't always been a Killer DM - in my earlier games it was very rare for a PC to die.
We didn't play a style of game where mutation, mutilation, or death was done for laughs.

DCC is only like this in regards to PC death in the 0-level funnel, not the entire game. But you wouldn't know that because you've only played through one badly-run funnel.

In a board game like HeroQuest where your character was just a nameless token on a board, it was okay. But in a roleplaying game, where really the only thing you had was your character, their personality, and interaction with the campaign world, it was something to be avoided.

Why? You can always make another one. There's nothing lost but the few minutes it takes to roll a new character and whatever progress that character made, depending on the DM. Starting a new PC with 1/2 the dead PC's XP and gold was common.

In a game when a DM can roll a 1d6, count around a table to pick out Player #x (where x=the number of the player he rolled randomly) and then a roll a 1d4 to pick out Character #y (where y=the number of your character he rolled randomly) and you just die - that isn't my kind of game.

Right. And as has been repeatedly stated: that's not how DCC works. Your Judge was bad. The game doesn't do that. The Judge you played with did. Maybe this time that will sink in.

Same thing at higher levels in DCC.

...that you haven't played. By your own admission. You have not played more than one 0-level funnel.

You roll on a random chart and you accidently lop off your own head...

No. That's literally not in the game. There is a fumble chart. The absolute worst that can happen is you take normal damage from your weapon +1. For that to happen you'd need to roll a natural 1 on a d20, so 5%...and be wearing heavy armor...roll a natural 16 on a d16, so 6.25%...for a combined total of 0.3125%. So three times in 1000...you'll hurt yourself with +1 damage. There's literally no way to cut your own head off.

or get pulled into the Nine Hells.

Not in the rule book there's not.

We get it. You didn't like a game you played once. But this is getting ridiculous.

I don't like that kind of stuff being left up to chance.

It's not. It's all a direct consequence of actions the players take. You make an attack, there's a chance of a fumble. But again, there's zero chance of decapitating yourself. You cast a super-powerful spell, there's a chance of misfire or corruption. It's not the Judge literally randomly rolling and telling you something bad happened. Again, your Judge was trash. Your issues here are not with the game as written, they're with the trash Judge who flubbed your first session.

If dying is the result of a random chart roll, then what use is there in skilled play, good tactics, cooperation, or any of the other things we admire about this hobby? When the very things that we celebrate about the hobby don't matter, the feel turns into a parody of the game.

That's emphatically not the case. Not that it matters.

 

[overgeeked]

Higher level DCC is more about skilled play, but part of the skill involved is playing the odds.

And stacking them wildly in your favor before even thinking of going into combat. DCC is definitely a high risk, high reward game.