DDI - vMinis are Extra?

[TimeOut]

Ok. Maybe you can't compare different games and models of subscription directly to another. So I am going to list only what I think of the different games mentioned earlier.

I was never interested in playing Magic Online because the aspect of paying twice for cards shunned me away. The tournament and drafting features looked really neat, but after paying 50€ for new cards on eBay, I don't want to pay 50€ again for the same cards online. It would have been a cool feature to register your offline card collection for online use (via DCI sanctioned events or some such).

On the WoW aspect: I can agree with the statement that addons such as Burning Crusade are mandatory for most players. But I see them as a special case, because of the long time in between. It is not so much of an addon but rather a new game.

The DDI tabletop is another thing. If you can use it without miniatures for the basic subscription, that is fine. If you can buy additional content, that is fine too. But I don't want to pay the subscription fee and then an additional fee to use Beholders.

Edit:

For some of us, time is worth a lot. Sacrificing hours to get/find an item in game cuts far more into my ressources than spending money. Especially if, as is usually the case with MMOGs like WoW, the "finding the item" part is not fun, but mindless, tiring work.

That goes more in the direction of a generic "How should MMOGs work? Time vs. Money" discussion. I try to keep my comment short, because I don't want to derail the thread.

Time is a fixed limit. You can spend only 24h per day on all your activities. Since a sane person has other activities that they will do, the amount availiable for the game cuts down to maybe 14h (6h sleep, 2h food and hygiene). Usually people work, that is another reduction by about 8-10 hours (for travel). So we have 4h remaining that might be spent on the game for a given person. Others have more time, others are only willing to spend less.

But nobody can ever spend more then 24h on the game in a given day. So you can easily give clear goals to archive and balance them directly against the amount of time needed to reach it (Note: random drop chances work against this system and are stupid).

Money is a flexible limit. You can spend any amount of money you have in a day. You can't balance the rewards accordingly, because everyone has a different income and a different mindset. Some are willing to spend much, others don't.

If you define the cost of an item to high, only the rich or hopelessly addicted people will buy it. If you assign it a low cost, every player rushes to buy it and its true value will crash. It is nearly impossible to balance a system based on a flexible limit structure.

You can make a RM based system balanced, only if you limit the amount of money that can be spent in a given time frame. Of course this might not be in your commercial interest.

 

[theRogueRooster]

Just to throw another element into the discussion...

If I am setting up an encounter with 4 goblin minions, do I have to purchase four goblin vMinis separately or will I be able to clone the one goblin I purchased four times? How far is WotC taking the simulation of real world objects?

-tRR

 

[Fenes]

Edit:


That goes more in the direction of a generic "How should MMOGs work? Time vs. Money" discussion. I try to keep my comment short, because I don't want to derail the thread.

Time is a fixed limit. You can spend only 24h per day on all your activities. Since a sane person has other activities that they will do, the amount availiable for the game cuts down to maybe 14h (6h sleep, 2h food and hygiene). Usually people work, that is another reduction by about 8-10 hours (for travel). So we have 4h remaining that might be spent on the game for a given person. Others have more time, others are only willing to spend less.

But nobody can ever spend more then 24h on the game in a given day. So you can easily give clear goals to archive and balance them directly against the amount of time needed to reach it (Note: random drop chances work against this system and are stupid).

Money is a flexible limit. You can spend any amount of money you have in a day. You can't balance the rewards accordingly, because everyone has a different income and a different mindset. Some are willing to spend much, others don't.

If you define the cost of an item to high, only the rich or hopelessly addicted people will buy it. If you assign it a low cost, every player rushes to buy it and its true value will crash. It is nearly impossible to balance a system based on a flexible limit structure.

You can make a RM based system balanced, only if you limit the amount of money that can be spent in a given time frame. Of course this might not be in your commercial interest.

2 points:

1. VTT is not a MMOG. It works like physical miniatures. If you have no trouble buying those, why would you have trouble buying virtual ones? Both simply serve their functions on their tabletops, and can be replaced by chips and markers. If it is simply the "virtual" nature, well - music, books, programs, lots of "virtual" things are sold. If you pay for a new program, you can pay for a new virtual miniature, same principle.

2. In a time-based MMOG, those with the most time spent dominate. Those who don't have to work, who sacrifice sleep, food and personal hygiene to spend as much time as they can. So, those who have those 4 hours every few days to spend on the MMOG are left in the dust. They will be outmatched in pvp, and they will be facing a game not balanced for them.
It's really not different from money-based games, just the currency is different. But in both games, you'll end up with the haves, and the have-nots, and the addicts who ruin their life over it. Just think of the raiding guilds, who do not let one in unless one will play X hours per week, and attend Y raids.
The solution for either problem, of course, is to play games where player skill, not level or items, matters most. Where it doesn't matter much what you have, but how you use it. Unfortunately, those games are harder to make, since they actually require to be fun to play to keep players, since the players won't be kept by luring them into the usual level/item timesinks.

 

[TimeOut]

1. VTT is not a MMOG. It works like physical miniatures. If you have no trouble buying those, why would you have trouble buying virtual ones? Both simply serve their functions on their tabletops, and can be replaced by chips and markers. If it is simply the "virtual" nature, well - music, books, programs, lots of "virtual" things are sold. If you pay for a new program, you can pay for a new virtual miniature, same principle.

If I buy miniatures offline and must buy them online a second time... See my comment on Magic Online above. But I won't use the VTT, so perhaps I should have stayed silent with my opinion.

I never said that it is a bad thing, I only said that I can't understand it and that I think it is a rather bad idea. If people like the VTT and are willing to pay money for another virtual miniature: Sure, its your hobby.

2. In a time-based MMOG, those with the most time spent dominate.

That is correct and that is the basic feature. It should be implemented that those people can reach everything faster, but not necessarily that other people are barred from attaining the same goals. That is something which many MMOGs failed to do yet.

Those who don't have to work, who sacrifice sleep, food and personal hygiene to spend as much time as they can. So, those who have those 4 hours every few days to spend on the MMOG are left in the dust. They will be outmatched in pvp, and they will be facing a game not balanced for them.

Which is exactly the wrong way to implement this system. Random drops, fixed instance lengths and unforgiving raid schedules are the main points that destabilize the actual system of balancing with effort.

The "correct" way (Warning: User opinion detected!) of balancing via effort spent should work like this: To attain item X a player needs to spend 12h performing the following activities. A "power gamer" can do this in a 12h session and gains the item the day it is released. A "casual gamer" will play every day of the week for 2 hours after work. He gains the item one week after release. He has exactly the same chances as everyone else and can play the game in its own time frame. He merely gets the things later, which is not something bad.

Additional rant: PvP is the stupidest thing that was ever implemented in any given MMOG. (This is no flamebait, but my honest opinion. But I won't comment it again if the issue creeps up.)

It's really not different from money-based games, just the currency is different.

And there is a natural limit. There is no such limit on money-based games.

But in both games, you'll end up with the haves, and the have-nots, and the addicts who ruin their life over it.

Actually that is true for the money based system. It is partially true for the time-based systems. Just replace "have-nots" with "have-notyets" and the statement fits.

Just think of the raiding guilds, who do not let one in unless one will play X hours per week, and attend Y raids.

I was a longtime member of such a raiding guild. We played 3 times a week from 19:00-23:00. I don't see the problem here. It is the same time investment as my work as a volunteer took.

The solution for either problem, of course, is to play games where player skill, not level or items, matters most. Where it doesn't matter much what you have, but how you use it. Unfortunately, those games are harder to make, since they actually require to be fun to play to keep players, since the players won't be kept by luring them into the usual level/item timesinks.

Time sinks = Money. Since the world ends without money, or so it seems, such a game would be very hard to create.

I think I wouldn't like such a game. Mostly because that was one developer sees as "skill" doesn't matter in the mind of the next.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I hate to say it but let's see it work before we gripe about buying add ons

Touche

 

[Fenes]

I never said that it is a bad thing, I only said that I can't understand it and that I think it is a rather bad idea. If people like the VTT and are willing to pay money for another virtual miniature: Sure, its your hobby.

I spend hundreds of dollars for 3D models to make character pictures and campaign illustrations already. But I don't buy miniatures, physical or otherwise.

The "correct" way (Warning: User opinion detected!) of balancing via effort spent should work like this: To attain item X a player needs to spend 12h performing the following activities. A "power gamer" can do this in a 12h session and gains the item the day it is released. A "casual gamer" will play every day of the week for 2 hours after work. He gains the item one week after release. He has exactly the same chances as everyone else and can play the game in its own time frame. He merely gets the things later, which is not something bad.

By the time he gets the item, it usually has become obsolete already, and new items were implemented - items who are better, and which players are expected to have to beat the new monsters. He'll always be late, since the leet raiders will always be catered to.

Additional rant: PvP is the stupidest thing that was ever implemented in any given MMOG. (This is no flamebait, but my honest opinion. But I won't comment it again if the issue creeps up.)

In many games, PvP is actually a godsend, since it offers a different experience from the mindless grinding. That is, of course, if it's closer to FPS systems, where gear won't dominate.

Actually that is true for the money based system. It is partially true for the time-based systems. Just replace "have-nots" with "have-notyets" and the statement fits.

You mean "Will not have until they are obsolete".

I was a longtime member of such a raiding guild. We played 3 times a week from 19:00-23:00. I don't see the problem here. It is the same time investment as my work as a volunteer took.

Which is more than I can afford, for example. So, I either don't play the game, or be satisfied with being obsolete, and unwanted in the game. Hence I play games where I am not required to spend so much time.

I think I wouldn't like such a game. Mostly because that was one developer sees as "skill" doesn't matter in the mind of the next.

Usually aiming, reflexes, and tactics. Basically, PvP FPS style.

 

[TimeOut]

I spend hundreds of dollars for 3D models to make character pictures and campaign illustrations already. But I don't buy miniatures, physical or otherwise.

That is fine. I would rather buy a miniature instead of a illustration, but that is my personal preference.

By the time he gets the item, it usually has become obsolete already, and new items were implemented - items who are better, and which players are expected to have to beat the new monsters. He'll always be late, since the leet raiders will always be catered to.

That are 2 flaws of the game in question. Not a flaw of the general balancing system.

If you set the time investment needed to a reasonable amount, then it is possible to gain the reward before new ones are introduced. Of course you have to make a cut somewhere. It is unreasonable to say "new content will only be introduced after every player has gained the old". WoW's audience is the semi-hardcore raiding guild and it treats its non-raiding customers rather second class. But that is a flaw of this specific game implementation, not one of the theory.

Which is more than I can afford, for example. So, I either don't play the game, or be satisfied with being obsolete, and unwanted in the game. Hence I play games where I am not required to spend so much time.

Yes. I am afraid there is a minimum threshold for WoW, but as said above, this is a flaw of the game, not of the theory. In theory you should be able to log on for 30 minutes, do some stuff (a quest, kill a monster, whatever) and gain 30 minutes worth of progression towards your next character advancement. It might be a level, it might be a new weapon, whatever.

If you want the new weapon and it is defined as a "12h weapon", you would need another time investment of 11:30 to receive it. It might be obsolete by the time you get it, but as I said, there is a minimum somewhere. If the minimum for the game in question would be 10 minutes, you would get it before it was obsolete. With a game where the minimum is closer to 2h (like WoW), you would get it at a stage where there might be better equipment.

That is unavoidable under this system, I agree. But it is still a matter of implementation.

Usually aiming, reflexes, and tactics. Basically, PvP FPS style.

Ugh, I know why I don't play FPS or anything remotely "twitchy". Hell, WoW PvP is at least 10 times to fast for me to be remotely "fun".

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

1. VTT is not a MMOG. It works like physical miniatures. If you have no trouble buying those, why would you have trouble buying virtual ones? Both simply serve their functions on their tabletops, and can be replaced by chips and markers. If it is simply the "virtual" nature, well - music, books, programs, lots of "virtual" things are sold. If you pay for a new program, you can pay for a new virtual miniature, same principle.

Physical miniatures have utlity beyond D&D - I can use them for HeX or SW or anything else. I can trade them, loan them, sell them, stick them in a box for 5 years and forget about them, etc. What I don't have to do is keep paying for them every month and have them *poof* if I stop subscribing.

Equating virtual representations of physical objects with artistic works is spurious.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I once said that random miniatures boosters were the dumbest idea I'd come across in TT RPGs or wargames, but I have to say, I was forgetting this idea entirely. Unless they not only provide a WIDE range of solidly designed (but ugly/simple) generic models for DDI but the vMinis are also amazingly awesome to look at (and at least semi-animated), then this is destined to be a gigantic flop and waste of pretty much everyone's time and money.

I'm also intrigued to know what they're going to do when the inevitably shut-down/replace the DDI in a half-decade or so. Do we get our money spent on "vMinis" back? I somehow don't think they're going to give us the same minis in the new DDI, even if there is one.

Fenes - Why wouldn't the players just play an FPS, then, though? That's the problem, because the answer is: those who like that sort of thing will. Especially as virtually every major FPS released in the last two years has significant "achievement" and "unlock" elements replicating a lot of potential RPG stuff. An awful lot of MMORPG players play MMORPGs because of their slow pace and the very fact that they're not purely reflex/quick-thinking based. Personally I'd love a few more fantasy-themed FPSes, but that's basically what you get if you take out the level-up and other elements.

Of course what I'd really like is something that combined FPS and "level up" elements w/o sucking horribly like DDO.

 

[Fenes]

Fenes - Why wouldn't the players just play an FPS, then, though? That's the problem, because the answer is: those who like that sort of thing will. Especially as virtually every major FPS released in the last two years has significant "achievement" and "unlock" elements replicating a lot of potential RPG stuff. An awful lot of MMORPG players play MMORPGs because of their slow pace and the very fact that they're not purely reflex/quick-thinking based. Personally I'd love a few more fantasy-themed FPSes, but that's basically what you get if you take out the level-up and other elements.

Of course what I'd really like is something that combined FPS and "level up" elements w/o sucking horribly like DDO.

Because so far no FPS offers a persistent world to roleplay in. If there would be a game that offered the consistent world of most current MMOGs (with the usual RP elements of character customisation, socialising, and crafting, and FPS style combat, I think it would attract those of us who want more than FPS, but do not want to level/item grind.