D&D 4E DDXP 4E Rules Appendix
- Thread starter keterys
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LostSoul said:
Up your perception skill- negating combat advantage will come up a lot more often (and negating the +2 to enemy attacks will get rid of a lot of ill effects of a surprise round).
First reaction has a lot of conditional ifs involved. If you get surprised (fail a perception roll) if you spend the AP (which means you can't spend it later in the encounter for an extra action), if you get attacked. Two minor, but constant benefits which don't require you to spend other resources are a lot better than something that may not even come up more than 1 in 5 encounters, if that.
keterys
First Post
Toughness increases a rogue's total hit points by about 20% at that level. That's a serious deal, whether a 1st level fighter's daily can crit for that much or not.
Alertness helps you every time you might possibly be surprised, as well as for finding secret doors, etc. And even makes you immune to combat advantage in the surprise round - which is like half the benefit since you can then just spend your action point on your initiative to just take another action then.
Both are passive and _will_ come up.
Golden Wyvern Adept, if you even have a wis of only 12, is quite useful. If it's higher, score. Presumably you won't take it if your wis sucks. Regardless, it gives a benefit that you can use to tactically spice up your area effect spells.
First Reaction... may not help at all. It requires a situation that might not come up, and if it does come up, you need to be willing to spend an expensive resource. Meh. Sure, it's a nice option, but I wouldn't spend a feat for it. I wouldn't blink if it were the general rule that you could just spend action points to act in the surprise round.
Alertness helps you every time you might possibly be surprised, as well as for finding secret doors, etc. And even makes you immune to combat advantage in the surprise round - which is like half the benefit since you can then just spend your action point on your initiative to just take another action then.
Both are passive and _will_ come up.
Golden Wyvern Adept, if you even have a wis of only 12, is quite useful. If it's higher, score. Presumably you won't take it if your wis sucks. Regardless, it gives a benefit that you can use to tactically spice up your area effect spells.
First Reaction... may not help at all. It requires a situation that might not come up, and if it does come up, you need to be willing to spend an expensive resource. Meh. Sure, it's a nice option, but I wouldn't spend a feat for it. I wouldn't blink if it were the general rule that you could just spend action points to act in the surprise round.
hennebeck
First Post
Able to act in the surprise round is a big advantage for our Rogues.
Gets to attack with combat advantage. does [W] + 2d6. Then gets to attack again in normal combat. If wins initiative, gets to do [W] +2d6 yet again. That's about 30 damage before something even gets to attack once.
When I ran my adventure this weekend, I gave the Hobgoblins a surprise round. (Not knowing the complete rules). It was devastating to the PCs.
I wouldn't rule out that the feat is a good thing.
Gets to attack with combat advantage. does [W] + 2d6. Then gets to attack again in normal combat. If wins initiative, gets to do [W] +2d6 yet again. That's about 30 damage before something even gets to attack once.
When I ran my adventure this weekend, I gave the Hobgoblins a surprise round. (Not knowing the complete rules). It was devastating to the PCs.
I wouldn't rule out that the feat is a good thing.
keterys
First Post
What caused the hobgoblins to get the surprise round? Did they make some kind of roll against the perception of the party?
The hobgoblins don't deal extra damage against surprised foes, I think (not checking) - so they get an extra action from surprise, but the players can take an extra action by just _spending an action point_ when they do finally get to go. Remember, this has to do something it doesn't already. Give the player a full set of actions (standard, move, minor) in surprise? Hey, that'd be a big deal.
But, as is, you're spending a feat that could help you _every combat_ to help _occasionally_ for _no net gain in actions_. It helps tactically, I never said the feat was useless... but it still looks like a poor feat.
The hobgoblins don't deal extra damage against surprised foes, I think (not checking) - so they get an extra action from surprise, but the players can take an extra action by just _spending an action point_ when they do finally get to go. Remember, this has to do something it doesn't already. Give the player a full set of actions (standard, move, minor) in surprise? Hey, that'd be a big deal.
But, as is, you're spending a feat that could help you _every combat_ to help _occasionally_ for _no net gain in actions_. It helps tactically, I never said the feat was useless... but it still looks like a poor feat.
Based on what we've seen so far, if you get a surprise round, you get combat advantage against those who haven't. However, if two groups just roll initiative, you only get combat advantage if your a rogue (with first strike). I don't think going first in initiative gives you combat advantage now.
keterys
First Post
Two rangers in the same fight... one with First Reaction, one with Lethal Hunter, both with 1 action point. They both get surprised by a group of hobgoblins in a 6 round combat.
Surprise Round:
A (First Reaction) Spends an action point to act in the surprise round. Nimble Strikes a Hobgoblin Soldier for 1d10+4 (35% chance to hit, 3.325 avg damage).
Round 1-6:
A (First Reaction) Marks a hobgoblin and careful strikes for 1d10+1d6 damage. (4.95 average damage)
B (Lethal Hunter) Marks a hobogblin and careful strikes for 1d10+1d8 damage. He then spends an action point and takes another careful strike (either 1d10 or 1d10+1d8, depending on whether he hit already with the quarry. Technically, he could only use the action point if he misses to maximize its damage) (5.5 avg damage normally, 8.525 avg damage in round with action point - add another 2.025 if you guarantee quarry applies)
So in this surprise combat...
A (First Reaction) - 33.025 avg damage, 7 standard actions, 6 move actions, 6 minor actions, 1 action point spent
B (Lethal Hunter) - 36.025 avg damage, 7 standard actions, 6 move actions, 6 minor actions, 1 action point spent
And, hey, in any combat in which there's no surprise round, B totally wins. Just like the combats with surprise rounds. But more.
Surprise Round:
A (First Reaction) Spends an action point to act in the surprise round. Nimble Strikes a Hobgoblin Soldier for 1d10+4 (35% chance to hit, 3.325 avg damage).
Round 1-6:
A (First Reaction) Marks a hobgoblin and careful strikes for 1d10+1d6 damage. (4.95 average damage)
B (Lethal Hunter) Marks a hobogblin and careful strikes for 1d10+1d8 damage. He then spends an action point and takes another careful strike (either 1d10 or 1d10+1d8, depending on whether he hit already with the quarry. Technically, he could only use the action point if he misses to maximize its damage) (5.5 avg damage normally, 8.525 avg damage in round with action point - add another 2.025 if you guarantee quarry applies)
So in this surprise combat...
A (First Reaction) - 33.025 avg damage, 7 standard actions, 6 move actions, 6 minor actions, 1 action point spent
B (Lethal Hunter) - 36.025 avg damage, 7 standard actions, 6 move actions, 6 minor actions, 1 action point spent
And, hey, in any combat in which there's no surprise round, B totally wins. Just like the combats with surprise rounds. But more.
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Colmarr
First Post
Your post assumes that First Reaction is an offensive feat, rather than a defensive one. For Rogues, that may be the case, but for any class without the Rogue's "combat advantage for going first" benefit I think it's safe to say that this feat is a defensive feat.
It lets you minimise incoming damage and dish out a little before the enemy can go to town on you.
Ultimately, the feat changes the way you can spend an action point, without changing the "value" of spending that point. Is that worth a feat. I say "maybe".
If the enemy is on the edge of a cliff and acting in the surprise round will allow you to push him off before he can move away? If the enemy is a rogue who's about to shiv you? If it'll allow you to spread out so the dragon doesn't get the whole party in it's breath weapon? They're all pretty big tactical advantages.
It lets you minimise incoming damage and dish out a little before the enemy can go to town on you.
Ultimately, the feat changes the way you can spend an action point, without changing the "value" of spending that point. Is that worth a feat. I say "maybe".
If the enemy is on the edge of a cliff and acting in the surprise round will allow you to push him off before he can move away? If the enemy is a rogue who's about to shiv you? If it'll allow you to spread out so the dragon doesn't get the whole party in it's breath weapon? They're all pretty big tactical advantages.
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LostSoul
Adventurer
Two rangers, stealthing in the night, one with First Reaction and one without. They get ambushed by some nasty critters.
First Reaction Ranger takes an action in the surprise round. He moves into a nice position, starts to fight.
The other Ranger gets surrounded by brutes/soldiers and dies.
In other words, it's good for a character who would be in big trouble if he gets stuck in melee (like Rangers, Rogues, Wizards, and Warlocks).
First Reaction Ranger takes an action in the surprise round. He moves into a nice position, starts to fight.
The other Ranger gets surrounded by brutes/soldiers and dies.
In other words, it's good for a character who would be in big trouble if he gets stuck in melee (like Rangers, Rogues, Wizards, and Warlocks).
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