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D&D 4E DDXP 4E Rules Appendix

Voss

First Post
hennebeck said:
Let's hope you have a sane DM.
A day is one cycle for your adventurers. If they can push on for 48 hours, then they push.
But thats both sub-optimal and completely optional. Barring pressing time issues cropping up in the adventure, there isn't any reason to do so.

When they sleep after 2 days, their HP reset, their AP reset and they get their daily powers back.
If players want to fight for 5 mintues, and then sleep for 6 hours, then they get all their stuff back.
But I won't play in a game that lets players do that, nor do I want to play with people that exploit the game like that.

Meh. I used extreme examples to make a point, but the basic question still stands. If you have an 'extended rest' that overlaps days, how does it work? If you've rest from 10 pm to 4 am, adventure for 12 hours and want to rest from 6pm to midnight, can you? Or have you used up that day's rest?

And before someone says '24 hours', there are settings, worlds and planes that do vary in what constitutes a day. Even discounting unreasonable amounts, I've seen everything from 20-34 hours.


And I bring this up because it was a huge, exploitable loophole in 3e at higher levels. Planeshift and planes with variable time coefficients were easy to mess with. Barring that, I don't want to see these rules to be what they were in 3e- handwaved away or a way for the DM to deny the wizard his abilites with random encounters. Except now that would work for everyone's daily abilities.
 
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Ximenes088

First Post
Voss said:
And I bring this up because it was a huge, exploitable loophole in 3e at higher levels. Planeshift and planes with variable time coefficients were easy to mess with. Barring that, I don't want to see these rules to be what they were in 3e- handwaved away or a way for the DM to deny the wizard his abilites with random encounters. Except now that would work for everyone's daily abilities.
Even presuming that planes with convenient temporal coefficients exist in 4e, I can hardly imagine that the process is any easier than teleporting- and teleporting has been clearly labeled as difficult, expensive, and much more cumbersome than in 3e. So sure, shift to the Demiplane of Plot Time to quick-rest. The ritual takes 18 hours to perform, 40,000 gold worth of ingredients, and can only be performed someplace you aren't.

As for what constitutes '24 hours', it's not sensible to give steely rules about it just so the corner case of people sleeping 6 hours, dumping everything, and then declaring it's a 'new 24 hours' to sleep another 6 hours. The spirit of the rule is that you sleep once a day. I don't recall many DMs having difficulty with the legions of once-a-day powers and magic items that existed in 3e, so they can just import those skills to this version. The rules don't need to be larded with special cases for the use of players and DMs who get into an exegetical arms race.
 


Voss

First Post
Ximenes088 said:
Even presuming that planes with convenient temporal coefficients exist in 4e, I can hardly imagine that the process is any easier than teleporting- and teleporting has been clearly labeled as difficult, expensive, and much more cumbersome than in 3e. So sure, shift to the Demiplane of Plot Time to quick-rest. The ritual takes 18 hours to perform, 40,000 gold worth of ingredients, and can only be performed someplace you aren't.

Don't know about that. It sounds that epic characters will be wandering off to the corner bakery in Sigil as a matter of course.

As for what constitutes '24 hours', it's not sensible to give steely rules about it just so the corner case of people sleeping 6 hours, dumping everything, and then declaring it's a 'new 24 hours' to sleep another 6 hours. The spirit of the rule is that you sleep once a day. I don't recall many DMs having difficulty with the legions of once-a-day powers and magic items that existed in 3e, so they can just import those skills to this version. The rules don't need to be larded with special cases for the use of players and DMs who get into an exegetical arms race.

Steely? No, but sensible, coherent ones would be a nice change. It doesn't need to be 'larded'- just a straightforward definition of a day- whether its a simple midnight cutoff or something else consistent, regardless of environmental variables... or time travel, for that matter.
 

Ahglock

First Post
One think I noticed is that you can't move through a square occupied by an enemy. I'll go out on a limb and assume there is more information later on that has exceptions, like if trained in the acrobatics skill you can, but the DC is X. I'm not a fan of you cant's, I prefer you can but this is what happens if you do. But I think this is just a basic version of the rules so they could play the adventure so I don't even know if its a you can't in the main rules.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Kobold Avenger said:
Here's one of the feats that were previewed a while back:

First Reaction
Tier:
Paragon
Benefit: If you are surprised, you may spend an action point to act during the surprise round.

Considering what we know about action points now, this seems like a pretty weak feat imo.

You only get an AP every other combat, and since combats are much longer getting surprised doesn't seem as big of a deal. Just my initial reaction of course, only time will tell.
 




LostSoul

Adventurer
keterys said:
... the other feats on the same page, actually.

I guess we disagree.

Toughness: 34 extra hp over the course of 30 levels. Nice, but nothing that a 1st level Fighter can't take away in one attack. ;)

Alertness: Combat advantage doesn't mean as much as flat-footed ("sneak attack" damage is way down).
+2 to a skill, nice, not amazing.

First Reaction: It's very nice to be able to avoid surprise.

Golden Wyvern: I need high WIS to take advantage. Otherwise a nice feat.
 


Voss

First Post
LostSoul said:
Alertness: Combat advantage doesn't mean as much as flat-footed ("sneak attack" damage is way down).
+2 to a skill, nice, not amazing.

First Reaction: It's very nice to be able to avoid surprise.

Up your perception skill- negating combat advantage will come up a lot more often (and negating the +2 to enemy attacks will get rid of a lot of ill effects of a surprise round).

First reaction has a lot of conditional ifs involved. If you get surprised (fail a perception roll) if you spend the AP (which means you can't spend it later in the encounter for an extra action), if you get attacked. Two minor, but constant benefits which don't require you to spend other resources are a lot better than something that may not even come up more than 1 in 5 encounters, if that.
 

keterys

First Post
Toughness increases a rogue's total hit points by about 20% at that level. That's a serious deal, whether a 1st level fighter's daily can crit for that much or not.

Alertness helps you every time you might possibly be surprised, as well as for finding secret doors, etc. And even makes you immune to combat advantage in the surprise round - which is like half the benefit since you can then just spend your action point on your initiative to just take another action then.

Both are passive and _will_ come up.

Golden Wyvern Adept, if you even have a wis of only 12, is quite useful. If it's higher, score. Presumably you won't take it if your wis sucks. Regardless, it gives a benefit that you can use to tactically spice up your area effect spells.

First Reaction... may not help at all. It requires a situation that might not come up, and if it does come up, you need to be willing to spend an expensive resource. Meh. Sure, it's a nice option, but I wouldn't spend a feat for it. I wouldn't blink if it were the general rule that you could just spend action points to act in the surprise round.
 

hennebeck

First Post
Able to act in the surprise round is a big advantage for our Rogues.

Gets to attack with combat advantage. does [W] + 2d6. Then gets to attack again in normal combat. If wins initiative, gets to do [W] +2d6 yet again. That's about 30 damage before something even gets to attack once.

When I ran my adventure this weekend, I gave the Hobgoblins a surprise round. (Not knowing the complete rules). It was devastating to the PCs.

I wouldn't rule out that the feat is a good thing.
 

keterys

First Post
What caused the hobgoblins to get the surprise round? Did they make some kind of roll against the perception of the party?

The hobgoblins don't deal extra damage against surprised foes, I think (not checking) - so they get an extra action from surprise, but the players can take an extra action by just _spending an action point_ when they do finally get to go. Remember, this has to do something it doesn't already. Give the player a full set of actions (standard, move, minor) in surprise? Hey, that'd be a big deal.

But, as is, you're spending a feat that could help you _every combat_ to help _occasionally_ for _no net gain in actions_. It helps tactically, I never said the feat was useless... but it still looks like a poor feat.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Based on what we've seen so far, if you get a surprise round, you get combat advantage against those who haven't. However, if two groups just roll initiative, you only get combat advantage if your a rogue (with first strike). I don't think going first in initiative gives you combat advantage now.
 

Stogoe

First Post
Normal: Always get one standard action.

First Reaction: Sometimes you get an entire round of actions if you want plus also the option for a standard action later in combat.

That seems pretty nice, depending on how many action points/surprised combats you get.
 

keterys

First Post
Two rangers in the same fight... one with First Reaction, one with Lethal Hunter, both with 1 action point. They both get surprised by a group of hobgoblins in a 6 round combat.

Surprise Round:
A (First Reaction) Spends an action point to act in the surprise round. Nimble Strikes a Hobgoblin Soldier for 1d10+4 (35% chance to hit, 3.325 avg damage).
Round 1-6:
A (First Reaction) Marks a hobgoblin and careful strikes for 1d10+1d6 damage. (4.95 average damage)
B (Lethal Hunter) Marks a hobogblin and careful strikes for 1d10+1d8 damage. He then spends an action point and takes another careful strike (either 1d10 or 1d10+1d8, depending on whether he hit already with the quarry. Technically, he could only use the action point if he misses to maximize its damage) (5.5 avg damage normally, 8.525 avg damage in round with action point - add another 2.025 if you guarantee quarry applies)

So in this surprise combat...
A (First Reaction) - 33.025 avg damage, 7 standard actions, 6 move actions, 6 minor actions, 1 action point spent
B (Lethal Hunter) - 36.025 avg damage, 7 standard actions, 6 move actions, 6 minor actions, 1 action point spent

And, hey, in any combat in which there's no surprise round, B totally wins. Just like the combats with surprise rounds. But more.
 
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Colmarr

First Post
Your post assumes that First Reaction is an offensive feat, rather than a defensive one. For Rogues, that may be the case, but for any class without the Rogue's "combat advantage for going first" benefit I think it's safe to say that this feat is a defensive feat.

It lets you minimise incoming damage and dish out a little before the enemy can go to town on you.

Ultimately, the feat changes the way you can spend an action point, without changing the "value" of spending that point. Is that worth a feat. I say "maybe".

If the enemy is on the edge of a cliff and acting in the surprise round will allow you to push him off before he can move away? If the enemy is a rogue who's about to shiv you? If it'll allow you to spread out so the dragon doesn't get the whole party in it's breath weapon? They're all pretty big tactical advantages.
 
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LostSoul

Adventurer
Two rangers, stealthing in the night, one with First Reaction and one without. They get ambushed by some nasty critters.

First Reaction Ranger takes an action in the surprise round. He moves into a nice position, starts to fight.

The other Ranger gets surrounded by brutes/soldiers and dies.

In other words, it's good for a character who would be in big trouble if he gets stuck in melee (like Rangers, Rogues, Wizards, and Warlocks).
 

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