Dealing with arrogant characters (players)?

[Hannibal King]

Ok guys as it happens I have a game this weekend. Now the majority (oh about 90%) of the enemies in the module are human/oids so chance of dialogue, pretty high (as apposed to the philosphical discussion you get with gelationous cubes).

So stick with me and I'll report what happened at the session come Monday - I'll call the thread "Dealing with arrogant players - Part 2" if this threads been pushed back several pages.

Heck maybe I am overeacting but I tend to plan ahead hence why I am asking for feedback on the arragance issue, makes me a better DM and better player as well.

Anyway thanks for the feedback, I don't agree with some of it but I respect it, and that's what it's all about ;-)

The King

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

Hope it goes well on the weekend and that at least something here's pointed you in the right direction

 

[Mallus]

I think what bothers me is when the characters take on thugs and easily whoop them so the next time they actually have the audacity to say something along the lines of "you guys should just give up now before were forced to kill you." WTF?!

WTF right back at you... Its one thing to have players so belligerent that they won't converse meaningfully with any NPC's, but its another thing entirely for PC's to trash-talk some street thugs. At its core, D&D is an adolescent power-fantasy (note the importance of killing things, taking their stuff, and gaining phenomenal powers of destruction). And no matter what else you might do with D&D, you can't escape that. It's built into the system. Heck, its built into the literature that inspired the system.

Getting mad at players for indulging their power-fantasies is like going to a bar with someone then getting mad at them for ordering a drink. It begs the question; what are you doing there in the first place?

That said, I sympathize with wanting to play a story-heavy game, seeing as every game I've run has been story-heavy, with plenty of PC/NPC interplay. But you have to know when to let the PC's flex their muscle, push folks around, etc. You're not going to get them to respect the King more by punishing them for threatening thugs. If you're goal is the creation a believably shared story-space, having every thug go uber when the PC's get cocky defeats your purpose as surely as their worst behavior...
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[Sejs]

I think what bothers me is when the characters take on thugs and easily whoop them so the next time they actually have the audacity to say something along the lines of "you guys should just give up now before were forced to kill you." WTF?!

Heh, the first thing that came to mind was to have the thugs run with it -

*pause* "...okay, you know what? You're right. We don't really stand a chance against you, and given the option, we'd all really rather not die. Tell you what.. how about you let us go, and we don't get in your way at all. We'll leave right now in fact. Sound good?"

Have the thugs play on the PCs arrogance against them in order to get out of a direct conflict. Wheedle and cajole like it's going out of style.


Then burn down their homes. Kill their loved ones. Commit various heinous acts all in the name of the PCs, etc, etc. All the really underhanded, dirty, revenge things you can think of. Horse's head in the bed kinda deal.

(as apposed to the philosphical discussion you get with gelationous cubes).

Ahem.

 

[The_Gneech]

Read "The God in the Bowl" by Robert E. Howard sometime ... Conan is astoundingly rude to everybody in that story. Heck, half of his dialogue could be read as successful Intimidate checks. The key is, they give him just as much grief back.

He also ends up running off into the night with his tail between his legs after a failed SAN check (to borrow another system's mechanic), so much for arrogance.

FWIW, I've never really played a "give 'em all grief, and if they complain, give 'em the sword" type of character ... but y'know, on some level, I have always wanted to, if only for a little while. I expect I'd get bored ... maybe in time, so will your players. Try indulging them for a while.

-The Gneech

 

[BSF]

I think what bothers me is when the characters take on thugs and easily whoop them so the next time they actually have the audacity to say something along the lines of "you guys should just give up now before were forced to kill you." WTF?!

Well, that isn't so bad. I mean, we are talking thugs here. Why would anybody that has the means to adequately defend themselves kow-tow to thugs?

I have promised myself if this comment is EVER used again, these 'thugs' will suddenly gain multiple class levels, some nifty magic items or a large number of reinforcements and pummel the characters into unconsciousness. When they awaken they will be aboard a slave ship, minus their precious gear headed for the Pirate Isles or some such 'teach em a lesson' like fate. And I will continue to do this until they start respecting their friends and foes to at least a minor degree.

Well, this is one solution. But it isn't the best one. You then start down the road of DM vs Players, whether you meant to or not. It might work well for your campaign and your gaming style. If so, more power to you.

A better option might be to keep giving them thugs to beat up on. Eventually, you drop in a ringer that is competent and can handle the party as peers. In the interim, the PCs aren't gaining much experience or treasure for handling opponents lower then their CR. Maybe that won't work well either, but I think it is a better option than arbitrarily bumping up an encounter so you can beat down the PCs. Beating down the PCs is easy and if your players think you arbitrarily increased the power of their enemies then they will begin to lose trust in you as a DM.

IMHO if you want to play a game where you don't have to respect any NPCs, play computer game RPGs. Real RPGs are about roleplaying and thus should at least have believably acting involved othewise go play a table top skirmish game!

Maybe you need to point that out to the players? Perhaps they are in videogame mode and have forgotten that you are more than a game server for the tabletop?

And why is it always the DM who has to ask the players what kind of game they want? For once I'd like the players to approach the DM with ideas, settings, themes etc.
The one problem with D&D is the DM/Players system. The day someone comes up with a D&D style game without this issue will be the day the gaming industry will rejoice!

The King

A really good group has a lot of cooperative effort between all the players. The game is a lot of fun when that happens. Unfortunately it doesn't always happen easily. The DM tends to be viewed as the coordinater. As well, the DM tends to be the only player that _must_ be present. Without a DM, there is no game. So the onus is often on the DM to initiate these sorts of conversations until the group has matured to the point where communication flows freely in each direction.

It isn't necessarily "right", but it is often the dynamic that exists at the beginning.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Well, that isn't so bad. I mean, we are talking thugs here. Why would anybody that has the means to adequately defend themselves kow-tow to thugs?

Cause they might be level 20 characters - Fighter 13 / Weaponmaster 7.

 

[JesterPoet]

Run them through a couple of sessions of Midnight.

That will take care of arrogance pretty much immediately.

 

[Hjorimir]

I haven't had this problem in years. There was a time when I was faced with these situations and one that sticks in my mind ended up with a character tossed into the dungeon for the rest of his life (the only time I effectively removed a character from play without killing him).

I was very clear to my players that they do not live in a world with the rights they are accustomed to in real life. In fact, everybody pretty much lives or dies at the whim of the aristocracy.

As far as arrogant players mouthing off, last night after a session I ran one of my players (man this guy is a great role-player) told me that in other campaigns he can kill some monsters and feel a sense of accomplishment while killing monsters in my campaign is more like a sense of relief.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Frankly, if your characters are regularly kicking the posteriors of their foes, they're entitled to be arrogant.

And if you're taking it personally that your PC's are mouthing off to 1st level kobold experts, maybe you should get help.