Dealing with equipment dependency in D&D

[Saeviomagy]

I disagree. Yes, the wizard can outperform the fighter in many circumstances, but there are a lot of "ifs" implicit in that statement. Having the right spell for the right situation is difficult. Especially if the spells are at all limited by the DM the character may not be able to prepare a spell appropriate to the situation. The spells only last for so long. Sure the wizard may have jumped over the first chasm and tied a rope to the other side, but what about the next one? The skills of the fighter and rogue are constant, they have no duration, no limits on their use. The wizard runs out of tricks all too soon. The fighter can put out far more damage that the wizard can hope to, it just takes longer.

Sure, the fighter makes his jump check and falls into the FIRST chasm, because at first level, the wizard pulls out a +10 to his jump check in addition to whatever else he may have already had.

The fighter has a +4 from strength, and maximum ranks, and STILL only gets to a +8. And it only gets worse, because by 5th level, the wizard's up to a +20, while the fighter's only at +13.

Sure, the wizard runs out of tricks. But the fighter never really had the tricks in the first place.

And this is at first level, when climb and jump still matter.

Later on, they stop mattering, because flight exists. All day flight.

And this is MUNDANE challenges. If you're up against stuff like permanent walls of force, and you're a warrior or rogue, forget it. Wait for the mage.

Lowering the epic DC's fixes this somewhat, and also brings non-combat abilities more in to line with the combat and magical abilities in terms of heroic potential.

A 10th level fighter is going toe-to-toe with monsters 10 times his size. But a 10th level rogue can't walk a tightrope. That's just sad.

 

[RangerWickett]

Saev, that's what I meant too. I just wasn't clear.

We need a few options for all the key skills. At 20th level, if you have 23 ranks, start with a stat of 18 and up it 4 times to get +6, and take Skill Focus, you've got a +32 bonus. If we want epic stuff to start around 10th level, you've got 13 ranks, a +5 bonus, and Skill Focus for +21, enough to hit DC 30 regularly.

I suggest we have synergies improve to +4 if you have 15 ranks.

Appraise - Um . . . okay, not the best place to start. I don't see many heroic things that can come out of this. Why isn't it a subset of Knowledge?

Balance - DC 20 for a tightrope. DC 35 to walk on water. DC 50 to walk on air. Jump can provide a synergy for walking on air.

Bluff - Catching someone flat-footed is still pretty cool even at high level. For rogues, it lets you sneak attack anybody. Assuming your foe has no ranks of Sense Motive, a 10th level Fighter is usually a DC 20 Bluff check, and a 20th level one is DC 30. Give the option of making a Bluff check as a free action with a -20 penalty, and we've got the perfect trick for rogues.

Climb - Say DC 35 for a perfectly smooth wall, DC 50 for a perfectly smooth ceiling. Allow people to climb using just their feet with a -20 penalty, and at DC 40 you'll have people fighting while walking on walls.

Concentration and Craft? Hm. Maybe make a sliding scale for Concentration, so you don't have to make a DC 60 Concentration check to cast your spell when the enemy barbarian power attacks you. Craft? *shrug*

Decipher Script . . . I think we just need to use language rules that are adapted out of d20 Modern or Call of Cthulhu. It's not really an epic thing.

Diplomacy - Hell, DC 35 is enough to make an enemy friendly if you have a few minutes. DC 45 can do it as a full-round action. That's as good as a charm person. Similar DCs for compulsions and suggestions.

Disable Device - I'm not familiar with what epic stuff already exists for this one.

Disguise - If alter self gives you a +10 bonus to Disguise checks, why not say that DC 30 can actually change your appearance without make-up. DC 40 to grow limbs? DC 50 to change size.

Escape Artist - If handcuffs (manacles) are DC 30, then I've seen people who must be 10th level. Maybe make wriggling through a wall DC 40, and a wall of force would be DC 50.

Forgery?

Gather Information - DC 40 to read minds? DC 50 to see the future?

Handle Animal - Train an animal in a round, DC 40. Train a magical beast in a round, DC 45.

Heal - This skill ought to give back hit points. Maybe DC 50 lets you bring someone back from the dead.

Hide - Invisibility gives you a +40 bonus to Hide checks. Thus DC 50 means you're effectively invisible anyway. Opposed skills like these are actually pretty balanced as is.

Intimidate - Should be able to cause fear effects. Or maybe intimidate should be compulsions, while diplomacy handles charms?

Jump - DC 40 lets you jump up 10 ft., or forward 40 ft. Every +2 DC thereafter doubles the distance. Well, perhaps that's a bit much, because a 2nd level character (+5 ranks, +4 Run feat, +4 barbarian with base speed 40, +4 Str 18, +3 Skill Focus, +2 synergy from Tumble) can have a +22 Jump check. A 1st level ex-barbarian/9th level monk can get a +45 bonus to Jump (+13 ranks, +4 Run feat, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Acrobatic feat, +5 Str 20, +2 synergy from Tumble, +16 for base speed 70).

A 1st level ex-barbarian/19th level monk can get +68 (+23 ranks, +4 Run feat, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Acrobatic, +6 Str 22, +2 Tumble synergy, +28 for base speed 100). That oughta be more than enough to just, like, fly.

Knowledge oughta let you identify magic items and tell the future or the past, etc.

Listen opposes Move Silently, so it's balanced.

Open Lock - Well, I don't really see locks being a big deterrent when you can walk through walls, but oh well.

Perform - DC 30 lets you inspire courage (as bard, non-magical), DC 40 inspire greatness, DC 50 . . . I dunno. What can Michael Jackson do?

Profession?

Ride - ? Have you seen extreme skateboarders? *shrug*

Search - See through walls?

Sense Motive - Maybe this is read thoughts?

Sleight of Hand - Should, if nothing else, grant a bonus to disarm checks.

Spellcraft - Fairly well-balanced as is.

Spot - Opposes hide, but distances need some revision.

Survival - Aragorn in Two Towers.

Swim - You should allow a Swim check to help you hold your breath. They go hand in hand.

Tumble - Tumble should have a DC based on the foe's BAB, and if it did, it would scale nicely.

Use Magic Device?

Use Rope - *laughs* This is just a silly skill.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Saev, that's what I meant too. I just wasn't clear.

Appraise - Um . . . okay, not the best place to start. I don't see many heroic things that can come out of this. Why isn't it a subset of Knowledge?

I dunno, but it's certainly the skill for which identification of magic items should hinge.

Balance - DC 20 for a tightrope. DC 35 to walk on water. DC 50 to walk on air. Jump can provide a synergy for walking on air.

Climb - Say DC 35 for a perfectly smooth wall, DC 50 for a perfectly smooth ceiling. Allow people to climb using just their feet with a -20 penalty, and at DC 40 you'll have people fighting while walking on walls.

That's a really good one. I'd not thought of that.

Concentration and Craft? Hm. Maybe make a sliding scale for Concentration, so you don't have to make a DC 60 Concentration check to cast your spell when the enemy barbarian power attacks you.

Craft? *shrug*

I'd be thinking of stuff like producing (limited) magical items (ie - non magical bonuses to hit and damage applied to weapons, additional levels of masterworking), producing standard equipment in under a round, and that sort of thing.

Decipher Script . . . I think we just need to use language rules that are adapted out of d20 Modern or Call of Cthulhu. It's not really an epic thing.

You could always let it do stuff like work out the true name of creatures from their possessions.

Diplomacy - Hell, DC 35 is enough to make an enemy friendly if you have a few minutes. DC 45 can do it as a full-round action. That's as good as a charm person. Similar DCs for compulsions and suggestions.

Yeah, diplomacy is probably all good already. Although maybe DC increases for diploming things that don't normally communicate? Like -20 to diplome an ooze or something? I dunno.

Disable Device - I'm not familiar with what epic stuff already exists for this one.

Mostly stuff to let you do it quicker. I'd say +5 as a single round, +10 as a move equivalent and +20 as a free action. The original DC's start at +20 and end up at +100 (??)

Escape Artist - If handcuffs (manacles) are DC 30, then I've seen people who must be 10th level. Maybe make wriggling through a wall DC 40, and a wall of force would be DC 50.

I'd probably NOT have "wriggle through a wall". The epic book has "wriggle through a space less than 2' across" at 80, and "wriggle through a wall of force" at 120. I'd drop those down to 40 and 50, with a halving of the 2' for every 2 points above 40.

Forgery?

Forge documents you've never seen? Create items which fool magical divinations?

Gather Information - DC 40 to read minds? DC 50 to see the future?

The epic book has -20 to avoid suspicion. I'd change this to "if you beat the DC by 10, you avoid suspicion".

I'd also have +3 to halve the time taken. Which means for an average gather information (dc 15), a 40 would get you 8 halvings, bringing you down to between 30 seconds and 2 minutes. Basically your character just turns around and says "hey buddy, you got a treasure map for that place, right?" and voila, they do.

Handle Animal - Train an animal in a round, DC 40. Train a magical beast in a round, DC 45.

Heal - This skill ought to give back hit points. Maybe DC 50 lets you bring someone back from the dead.

The epic heal skill sets a DC 50 to give a nights rest in an hour (but only 1nce per day per patient)
DC 100 gives you a weeks worth of the same.

So - DC 50 gives us a weeks worth of healing in a single hour.

Now, to get any kind of smooth function, we probably want to have heal 'time squish' rest times, starting at DC 15 (where it still takes a whole night) and scaling to DC 50, where a week's worth of total rest only takes an hour.

So how about if we halve healing time for every +5 beyond 15? That works out about right.

Hide - Invisibility gives you a +40 bonus to Hide checks. Thus DC 50 means you're effectively invisible anyway. Opposed skills like these are actually pretty balanced as is.

EXCEPT that blindsight, blindsense and tremorsense just flat-out defeat them, full stop, no questions asked.

Of course that just means that hide should have a reduced effectiveness versus those. Say -10 versus blindsense and -20 versus blindsight?

Intimidate - Should be able to cause fear effects. Or maybe intimidate should be compulsions, while diplomacy handles charms?

Well, for a start -10 to intimidate as a move action, -20 as a free action and intimidate applies to ALL foes that you threaten and that can perceive you.
Every point by which you beat their opposed roll gives an extra round of the 'shaken' condition.
Once you beat it by 5 points, frightened for a single round AS WELL as shaken for 5 rounds after that. Again each point is another round of frightened.
Once you beat it by 10 points, panicked for a round, frightened for 5 rounds after that, shaken for 5 rounds after that. Add another round for each point.

Which means that (on average - all d20's are coming up as 10) mister +32 intimidate can throw in some flourishes to his fighting (for a -10, total of 32), and creatures with 20 hit dice (and no wisdom bonus) get shaken for a couple of rounds, creatures with only 15 hit dice get frightened for a couple of rounds and shaken for 5 after that, and creatures with only 10 hit dice are just plain out of the fight.

If the guy goes all out, and basically spends his turn fighting intimidating instead, he's frightening opponents with 20 hit dice for a little bit.

Maybe this is a bit much - we could drop it down by a little bit, or make the frightened and panicked statuses more difficult to achieve. Say +10 DC instead?

More later.

Oh, and use rope is a dumb skill.

 

[Staffan]

Escape Artist - If handcuffs (manacles) are DC 30, then I've seen people who must be 10th level.

Remember that you can retry Escape Artist until you're blue in the face, which means taking 20 is an option. That makes DC 30 reachable by a dedicated character at first level (4 ranks, and a total bonus of +6 from Dexterity, skill focus, and Agile).

There are some other skills where the DCs basically assume you are taking 20. Open Locks comes to mind as well - not Disable Device though, since you set it off if you fail by more than 5.

 

[Janx]

Just as a note, Uppper_Krust has made an interesting CR calculation system:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66470&page=1&pp=20

A quick scan of it seems to account for equipment as modifying the CR. So using the system to measure the CR of the PCs (including equipment) and recalculate the monsters CR (with their equipment and immunities, powers, etc) should result in making it easier to have a low-gear party and to pit fair monsters against them.

Janx

 

[Saeviomagy]

A quick scan of it seems to account for equipment as modifying the CR. So using the system to measure the CR of the PCs (including equipment) and recalculate the monsters CR (with their equipment and immunities, powers, etc) should result in making it easier to have a low-gear party and to pit fair monsters against them.

And does nothing to alleviate the difference between a wizard loaded for bear with spells, and a fighter with a dagger.

I mean sure, the party will defeat the reduced CR's, but the fighter will probably feel like he may as well not be there.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Jump - DC 40 lets you jump up 10 ft., or forward 40 ft. Every +2 DC thereafter doubles the distance. Well, perhaps that's a bit much, because a 2nd level character (+5 ranks, +4 Run feat, +4 barbarian with base speed 40, +4 Str 18, +3 Skill Focus, +2 synergy from Tumble) can have a +22 Jump check. A 1st level ex-barbarian/9th level monk can get a +45 bonus to Jump (+13 ranks, +4 Run feat, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Acrobatic feat, +5 Str 20, +2 synergy from Tumble, +16 for base speed 70).

A 1st level ex-barbarian/19th level monk can get +68 (+23 ranks, +4 Run feat, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Acrobatic, +6 Str 22, +2 Tumble synergy, +28 for base speed 100). That oughta be more than enough to just, like, fly.

Knowledge oughta let you identify magic items and tell the future or the past, etc.

Well, knowledge already has high level applications - someone who can pull of a 40 with regularity will get 4 facts about even the toughest monsters.

I think knowledge skills in general need a bit of clarification though. The other night I failed (with a check result of 32) to know anything about a huge silver dragon.

You know, things that if I'd happened to see a small silver dragon, I'd have known.

Listen opposes Move Silently, so it's balanced.

Agreed. I think the epic use for listen is stupid - it defeats audible illusions with a static DC. Which to me seems a bit much.

As is, listen not only opposes move silently, it can also pinpoint foes with a high enough roll. I'd suggest pinpointing a sound should only be +10 to the base roll.

I'd also suggest changing range modifiers somehow, but I've no idea how. Perhaps they should follow those of spot, below?

Open Lock - Well, I don't really see locks being a big deterrent when you can walk through walls, but oh well.

Well, stopping you from walking through walls is a start, so now if there's a nice big sealed door, it's a problem.

Also applying the speed factors from disable device is a good idea. Why walk through the wall when you can open the door as a free action anyway?

Perform - DC 30 lets you inspire courage (as bard, non-magical), DC 40 inspire greatness, DC 50 . . . I dunno. What can Michael Jackson do?

Profession?

Profession is a flavour skill anyway. It's the "there's no game mechanic for being able to shine my boots well, so I'll take profession(soldier).

At best, I'd probably make some sort of nonlinear scale for the amount of cash you earn. Otherwise 20th level profession(soldier) characters only pull in 30 gp a day.

Ride - ? Have you seen extreme skateboarders?

Dc's for riding untrained animals, for standing on your animal, for fighting while standing on your animal (dunno what benefit that holds, but hey...).

Search - See through walls?

Find magical auras. Search from more than 10 feet away. Search as a free action.

Sense Motive - Maybe this is read thoughts?

Detect a specific lie. Detect the truth FROM a specific lie. Get fantastic hunches (like advance warning of ambushes and the like)

Sleight of Hand - Should, if nothing else, grant a bonus to disarm checks.

Well, sleight of hand should have a bunch of modifiers for larger objects. Currently it lets you conceal a light weapon (or equivalent) on your person, or lift a light weapon or equivalent from an opponent for a DC of 20. How does a +10 to the opposed spot check and DC for each size increase sound? That means a DC 40 can lift a two-handed sword from someone. I'd probably also add some modifiers for objects being secure and the like. Ideally I'd like someone to be able to lift the armour off a foe with the maximum result, and not have him notice.

Yes, I know this sounds huge, but we're comparing with walking on air!

Spellcraft - Fairly well-balanced as is.

Spellcraft should probably be able to identify spells from the results of a detect magic eventually. Say DC 30+spell level to recognise a spell from it's aura if it's still functioning? +10 to DC to recognise from a lingering aura?

Spot - Opposes hide, but distances need some revision.

First up I'd allow the pinpointing of an invisible creature at +10 to the DC. That makes it only a 30 to find the square of an invisible creature within 10 feet.

Agreed. Ideally you'd do something with square roots (though that gets ugly). Say 10 feet is a -1, 40 feet is -2, 90 feet is -3, 160 feet is -4, etc etc.

Basically for a given modifier, square the modifier and multiply by 10 to find the distance it works out to.

With a DC of 40, you can tell whether there's an active invisible creature within 4000 feet of you, and you can pinpoint it if it's within 10 feet of you.

Survival - Aragorn in Two Towers.

First up - +10 to the DC to move at full speed while foraging, protecting yourself from harsh weather, etc.

Next up, for every 5 points above the DC for tracking, learn one thing about the being tracked. This thing is decided by the player. For instance "what race is he" "how tall is he" "is he armed" "Is he armoured" "is he armed" etc.

Also - I'd let it oppose a tracking roll, instead of just giving a +5 to the DC for tracking.

Finally - the epic book has a range of DC's from 40 to 120 for finding your way to another location on a plane (at 120, you find your way regardless of whether you've been there before). I'd alter them so they range from 35 to 50.

Swim - You should allow a Swim check to help you hold your breath. They go hand in hand.

You hold your breath for 1 round per point of swim check BEYOND the original limit of twice your con.

Tumble - Tumble should have a DC based on the foe's BAB, and if it did, it would scale nicely.

I'd say tumble should be opposed by 10+foes BAB+foes dex mod. +5 for tumbling through his square. +10 for staying in his square and fighting, regardless of size problems (ie - a medium creature could fight within the square of another medium creature).

Use Magic Device?

UMD already HAS epic uses. I'd probably allow it to also fool detection spells at DC's of 30+the level of the spell.

Use Rope - *laughs* This is just a silly skill.

Yup. Can't think why this is even in the game.

Of course you need something to oppose escape artist. I don't think a skill with such restricted uses should be it though.