Dealing with Extraordinary players

[ido.tamir]

I have a group (playing 3.5e) which I DM for two years now.
They never missed a meeting, and are always eager for more.

The problem is - they are very, and I mean very good players (roleplaying and rules knowledge\usage).

It gets to a point where I find it really difficult to challagne them. I don't have a lot of prep time (I have 2-3 hours a week - I have 2 kids, a wife and a Masters degree to work on, plus a day job ), and my familiarity with all 3.5e non-core stuff is not that good. On the other side, all the players are very familiar with all the books, and get wonderful ideas out of them.

Any advice?

(Note that they are not overpowered in the sense of magic items etc. They did use 'builds', but I get the feel that their strenght is in the scope of their knowledge of the rules, i.e what is the best combination of spells to overcome any given problem, or what tactic is very effective againts certains types of creatures - after they identified it using Knowledge skills etc)

 

[Piratecat]

Treasure these people! They are worth their weight in gold.

I have the same sort of "problem." My games are usually predicated on presenting a situation or a plot dilemma and thinking, "what are they unlikely to suspect?" I try to take their expectations and twist them 90 degrees, keeping them guessing and involved. That's crazy-fun for me as well.

 

[Umbran]

A few possibilities, in no particular order...

Maybe one of them wants to run the game instead?

If you find this is a major problem, consider switching games - to one in which they are not masters.

If you continue playing the current game, consider restricting the scope of rulebooks you allow - if they cannot pick and choose from the full spread of available books, the number of ways their knowledge can outstrip your ability is smaller.

Recognize that when you lack finesse, the DM can always beat the party with sufficient brute force. No matter what their rules mastery, if you toss an Encounter Rating that's 8 or 10 higher than their level, they're going to be squished. So, you take that principle and you tone it down a bit - figure that their rules mastery gives them an edge, and their effective level is one or two higher than their actual. If they're 5th level, you design encounters and adventures with the assumption that they're 6th or 7th.

Make more of the campaign dependent on their plans and reactions than about their power - social encounters, political conundrums, and suchlike are often more level-independent.

 

[Mark]

I'd probably not worry so much about challenging them mechanically, in regard to what they fight, but rather look toward keeping them engaged with interesting characters and fascinating twists in where their lives are taking them as PCs. Try to always think of NPCs in terms of what their ambitions might be, even if they are relatively mundane (a swordsmith that would like to open a shop in the big city). Try, too, to think of "place" in similar terms that you would a character, in regard to arc and its relationship to the PCs (and how that might change over time). Try not to fall into the trap of thinking of challenges as obstacles that can be put in the way of PCs. Think in terms of where the PCs seem to be trying to go and put some challenges a little further out so they have to stretch to reach and take advantage of them.

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

I have a blog entry on this, and it includes links to other blogs that have discussed this recently as well (I particularly recommend Sly Flourish).

Arcane Springboard: Challenging the PCs

 

[ExploderWizard]

Good advice so far, but challenging the players beyond the scope of the rules does often take more prep time. Since you seem to have a lot going on in your non-gaming life right now, how likely would it be that perhaps one of your very gifted players run something for a while so you can have a break?

 

[Nifft]

Above 10th level or so in D&D, I stopped bothering to think of solvable problems. Just throw stuff at them, with no particular solution in mind, and expect they'll be able to handle stuff anyway -- or they'll be able to get away and come back later, eventually unleashing upon the problem a portable hole full of Batman.

The most important thing IMHO is:
- Know the motivations of each important group and NPC, so you know how the group or NPC will react to whatever the PCs do.
- Have a general feel for what would happen if the PCs did nothing, so you have a session's worth of stuff even if they choose to not do much at all. Plan to throw this stuff away if the players find something else more interesting -- thus, don't put too much work into it.
- Reskin / recycle villains who have had bad luck with save-or-die effects. It's still a balanced encounter, who cares if you just swapped "fireball" for "lightning bolt"? They take way too long to create if you only get to use them once.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Stuntman]

Can you be a little more specific on what exactly the issue is? Are they unhappy that the game is too easy for them? Are you unhappy that there are not more casualties in your game?

 

[jdcash]

Can you be a little more specific on what exactly the issue is? Are they unhappy that the game is too easy for them? Are you unhappy that there are not more casualties in your game?

This.

Are you sure that there is even a problem from the players point of view? Maybe you are not giving yourself enough credit!

 

[Cyronax]

The most important thing IMHO is:
- Know the motivations of each important group and NPC, so you know how the group or NPC will react to whatever the PCs do.
- Have a general feel for what would happen if the PCs did nothing, so you have a session's worth of stuff even if they choose to not do much at all. Plan to throw this stuff away if the players find something else more interesting -- thus, don't put too much work into it.
- Reskin / recycle villains who have had bad luck with save-or-die effects. It's still a balanced encounter, who cares if you just swapped "fireball" for "lightning bolt"? They take way too long to create if you only get to use them once.

Totally agree with all of this. This advice will save you a lot of time, but it might require you to put some early lead in time to it. The best DM-improv comes from a DM who knows their NPCs personalities and resources -- not their stats. I think looking at any rpg as a setting with a collection of competing factions (and you control all but one faction) is a useful way to DM.

Since you use 3.5 -- I advise that you don't get spun around the idea of using the 'perfect monster' -- i.e. a templated, carefully crafted villain that you'll be playing as a recurring or background force. I remember spendin way too much time trying to build a villain with all the right feats and all the right contingency spells prepared/in spellbook and it was a labor of love .... but definitely only worth it because I had time (single with no dependents).

Use an already-statted out NPC from the old Dungeon mags or any sourcebook and then run with them.

Sounds like you have a great group.

C.I.D.