Dealing with Improved Trip.

[RCanning]

I am running a light campaign for a few friends. One of my best friends, a hard core gamer, has asked to join. He has created a Bar2/Fgt2, and it works within the rules that I am using...

The problem. It is the first time I have come across a character with Improved Trip and a halberd, and it is just as frustrating as hell. Now I know that he can't use it while raging, as he can't use Combat Expertise, but even still, making a touch attack is not that hard, and with +7 on his trip roll and then being able to follow up with an attack, things are just messy.

When fighting any humanoid that is not at least CR 6 or 7, then this character just wades in and wipes the floor with them. The Sorcerer in the party has stopped doing anything, because there is no point, and the other combat characters just can't compete.

What have other GMs done to deal with situations like this?

 

[Saeviomagy]

I am running a light campaign for a few friends. One of my best friends, a hard core gamer, has asked to join. He has created a Bar2/Fgt2, and it works within the rules that I am using...

The problem. It is the first time I have come across a character with Improved Trip and a halberd, and it is just as frustrating as hell. Now I know that he can't use it while raging, as he can't use Combat Expertise, but even still, making a touch attack is not that hard, and with +7 on his trip roll and then being able to follow up with an attack, things are just messy.

Actually, nothing stops him from using it when enraged. I mean sure he can't use the prerequisite feat, but it doesn't stop any of it's dependant feats from working.

When fighting any humanoid that is not at least CR 6 or 7, then this character just wades in and wipes the floor with them. The Sorcerer in the party has stopped doing anything, because there is no point, and the other combat characters just can't compete.

What have other GMs done to deal with situations like this?

For starters - if he doesn't have combat reflexes, it's easy to get within his reach and stop him from functioning. Even if he does have it, there's a lot of stuff the typical opponent can do when within his reach.

He cannot AoO within 5'. Disarm, sunder, grapple, trip, bullrush are all balanced by inflicting AoO's, and now they don't.

4 legged monsters, large monsters and the like all get bonuses vs trip. A cr 1 horse matches his trip attack.

Other guys with polearms.

Darkness. Fog.

 

[RCanning]

Actually, nothing stops him from using it when enraged. I mean sure he can't use the prerequisite feat, but it doesn't stop any of it's dependant feats from working.

Actually, it states in the SRD. "Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." This means that he can't use it while raging because he does not have access to Combat Expertise.

For starters - if he doesn't have combat reflexes, it's easy to get within his reach and stop him from functioning. Even if he does have it, there's a lot of stuff the typical opponent can do when within his reach.

Actually, I was looking in the SRD, and the Halberd is not listed as a reach weapon; just one that allows you to trip with it. Reach is not the issue, it is closing into combat, and then keeping the people he is fighting prone; if they stand up, the AoO generally causes them to die.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, it states in the SRD. "Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat."

That's right. He has the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated.

The prerequisite feat is Combat Expertise; he has Combat Expertise.

He may not use Combat Expertise, but he has it.

As a related example: Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for Far Shot. Point Blank Shot can only be used within 30'. This does not mean that Far Shot can only be used within 30'. When aiming at a target 140' away, he can't use Point Blank Shot, but he still has the feat.

Improved Trip can be used while Raging. Combat Expertise can't.

Actually, I was looking in the SRD, and the Halberd is not listed as a reach weapon...

Right. It's an incredibly common misconception people have, but it's not a reach weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

Being prone is breaking your game?

If you think that's bad, just wait until you get dedicated grapplers.

Hell, cook up some dedicated grapplers and throw them against Mr Trips.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

There are lots of things that aren't too vulnerable to tripping:

Dwarves (+4 bonus to resist trip checks)
Barbarians (with rage, they will usually have a +5 or +6 bonus to their opposed check--good enough that he can't reliably beat them)
High strength fighters (If his foe has a +4 (18 strength) on the trip check, Mr Trips will only beat them 60% of the time or so).
Snakes (prone, what's that?)
4 legged creatures (wolves, wardogs, black bears, brown bears, dire bears, etc)
Fighters with Prone Fighting (Complete Warrior)
Ogres (high strength and large size means they will usually win the trip check)
Trolls (see ogres)
Annis Hags (see ogres)
Giants (see ogres)
Grappling Monks (well, according to the FAQ, they take a penalty to their grapplec check for being prone but that doesn't necessarily keep them from grappling Mr Trips--and if they move in and grapple Mr. Trips on round 1, he won't get to trip them.)
Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword types. (Touch attacks don't help a lot against Mirror Image. Blink makes Improved Trip a risky endeavor too. Enlarge Person gives them a size bonus that will usually mean they win the trip check).
Incorporeal Undead
Flying foes
Oozes
Anyone with Enlarge Person cast on them

So, all of those foes are pretty resistanct to trip tactics.

There are other ways to make Improved Trip less effective too:
1. Lots of weaker foes. Sure, it's easy to trip a goblin or a skeleton. But it's just as easy to kill them. All Improved Trip does here is give you two chances to roll a "1" on those attack dice.
2. Use spellcasting foes. It's all well and good to be able to trip the evil wizard's orcish henchmen. But it doesn't stop the wizard. And if the wizard is the real threat, someone else is going to have to deal with him while Mr. Trips is busy tripping and killing his ogre or bugbear bodyguards.
3. Use guerilla foes. With this kind of foe, tripping is a good tactic if you can get close enough but ranged and magical effects may be better. If the hasted enemy rogues are using spring attack to dodge in, attack, and retreat out of range of reprisals, other characters may have a chance to shine. If the enemies are using Shoot on the Run while standing behind pits or boulders (out of melee range), then someone else will have to deal with them.

Improved Trip is a good tactic against certain types of foes. It's not a useful tactic against all foes, however.

 

[Sejs]

Fighters with Prone Fighting (Complete Warrior)
Grappling Monks

Grappling Monks with Prone Fighting. And Earth's Embrace.

Archers. Firing from cover, like say in a tree. Trip what?

 

[Darklone]

Trolls and Ogres are out, he spoke about humanoids.

Still I don't really see a problem. Melee opponents should have a good chance of resisting the trip (even in rage, he only has a +9, that's not too much). Most melee opponents should have a trick in their sleeve as well, like the mentioned Sunder or Disarm. Or a reach weapon. I can see him being dangerous with Enlarge Person and a potion of Heroism... but otherwise?

The last tripperdude I sent against my players tripped twice, then got annihilated by the two prone spellcasters with spells.

 

[hong]

I am running a light campaign for a few friends. One of my best friends, a hard core gamer, has asked to join. He has created a Bar2/Fgt2, and it works within the rules that I am using...

The problem. It is the first time I have come across a character with Improved Trip and a halberd, and it is just as frustrating as hell. Now I know that he can't use it while raging, as he can't use Combat Expertise, but even still, making a touch attack is not that hard, and with +7 on his trip roll and then being able to follow up with an attack, things are just messy.

When fighting any humanoid that is not at least CR 6 or 7, then this character just wades in and wipes the floor with them. The Sorcerer in the party has stopped doing anything, because there is no point, and the other combat characters just can't compete.

What have other GMs done to deal with situations like this?

All of the special attacks (tripping, disarming, sundering, grappling) are dubious, because they're really variations on called shots. As such, they become hard to deal with unless you specifically tailor a build to take them into account. Tripping, however, is probably the most annoying.

What I'd do is tell the guy that his schtick is spoiling the game for everyone else, and to come up with an alternative. To be fair, also let him swap Improved Trip for another feat.

 

[avatarolt]

What I'd do is tell the guy that his schtick is spoiling the game for everyone else, and to come up with an alternative. To be fair, also let him swap Improved Trip for another feat.

Wow. Improved trip isn't that hard to deal with if you just think of it while planning your adventures. I've been running with a Psion who actually uses a spiked chain/improved trip combo for...levels 3-14 now. Our DM had it figured out by level 5 and started blessing him with the "you can't trip this" jank. Now he just uses dominate or something fun. But I digress.

The number one thing to remember: being prone doesn't keep you from doing *anything*. Don't get up. Attack from the ground. Don't allow him another opportunity to trip, as getting up provokes another AoO. Cast spells from the ground. Someone noted initalizing grapples from the ground.

Use a charge to get within 5'. Eliminate his ability to give you the AoO.

I don't think IT is a "broken feat", and certainly doesn't neccessitate the "change it to something else or you can't play" trump card. Just get familiar with the rules of tripping and being prone. Yeah, it's a little more work than Rule 0, but it's much more fun when you trump him back.