D&D 5E Dealing with optimizers at the table

[Non-Proficient]

Yeah... the concept of being “outshone” is really weird to me. It’s very.... computer game.

A young man in our games, fresh out of high school, was like this- heck even got their tablet out and PLAYED video games when any non-combat pillar of play was in the spotlight (that wouldn't fly at my table, but it wasn't my table) but let's be honest, while immature and inexperienced players instincts can be grating, most of these kids steep themselves in video games for the vast majority of their free time. Is it that weird to you that these folks bring that baggage with them to the game?

If you are blessed to have a stable group of mature RP types at your table, great, relish it. Otherwise, you have to be accepting that players come at this pastime with completely different outlooks and without even bothering to buy their own books at times (I had a bad printing of the PHB that Wizards sent me a replacement for, and so I offered to sell it to this kid for $5. Nope. He was able to get by bumming table copies for free --mostly mine, the very one on offer-- it had odd faint ink marks smeared all over the Feats section (and not even the good ones!). Owning a copy wasn't a high-priority purchase compared to tabletop miniatures & DLC for his 'puter games. I would have given it to him if he'd been willing to pony up the dough, but spider senses telling me he was only wanting to mooch proved correct).

He reliably showed up to politely play in our games though and was not going to be long before he was to be whisked away for military or guard or something, so... <shrug> But yeah, some people have unfortunately been conditioned with desires to be at the top of a non-existent combat leaderboard for vanity reasons. But Weird? In the current year?

 

[Arial Black]

However, the OP has told us their situation, and we know which group is causing the issue.

The OP has posted more since I wrote all this, and the problem has become even more clear.

The OP is telling us that the problem is optimisation.

But he is wrong. Mistaken.

Reading his posts, it's clear that the actual problem is that some players are optimising and refusing to stop optimising.....AND that the OTHER players are NOT optimising and are refusing to optimise, or don't know how.

Another DM with exactly the same situation could post that he has a problem with players that refuse to make decent characters!

The OP sees the optimisers as the bad guys, but it would be just as easy to paint the 'useless' guys as the problem.

That's the OP's bias.

Since the problem is the disparity, not the optimisers OR the can't-make-a-decent-character guys, the solution is to narrow the gap.

Three ways spring to mind:-

1) make the optimisers create worse PCs
2) make the others create better PCs
3) both of the above

But which way is better?

Using the basketball analogy from earlier, if I was the coach and some players were better than others, my solution would NOT be to tell the good players to play badly! It would be to teach the bad players to play better!

 

[Arial Black]

The players can also deal with a disruptive optimizer. It's not always up to the DM. I recall one instance in which the player intervened using their characters.

The optimizer always forced combat if a social encounter was taking too long (for him). He just wanted to fight, fight, fight. Undergournd PCs were negotiating safe passage with a tribe of cavemen. Things were slow because of cavemen's limited speech skills but they were moving along. The optimizer attacked the cavemen chief with no apparent reason. The PCs where clearly outnumbered. The other players decided not to intervene when the optimizer's PC was attacked and killed by the cavemen. Their PCs took five steps back. After they gave more equipment to the cavemen as compensation.

The optimizer didn't force combat for no reason after that. Once again lesson learned.

I 'liked' your post, and other similar posts where horrible players got their deserved comeuppance, but I must point out that the problem players here are not problems because their PCs were optimised, they were problems because they had their PCs behave badly!

In your example (and I've been present in similar situations), the player starting a fight with those cavemen would've been exactly as problematic if their PC was poorly designed!

 

[Arial Black]

It's always a challenge, just because I have players in all my groups for whom "have long, drawn-out conversations with almost any semi-relevant NPC" is their #1 play priority.

Exactly! Problem players! : )

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The OP has posted more since I wrote all this, and the problem has become even more clear.

The OP is telling us that the problem is optimisation.

But he is wrong. Mistaken.

Reading his posts, it's clear that the actual problem is that some players are optimising and refusing to stop optimising.....AND that the OTHER players are NOT optimising and are refusing to optimise, or don't know how.

Another DM with exactly the same situation could post that he has a problem with players that refuse to make decent characters!

The OP sees the optimisers as the bad guys, but it would be just as easy to paint the 'useless' guys as the problem.

That's the OP's bias.

Since the problem is the disparity, not the optimisers OR the can't-make-a-decent-character guys, the solution is to narrow the gap.

Three ways spring to mind:-

1) make the optimisers create worse PCs
2) make the others create better PCs
3) both of the above

But which way is better?

Using the basketball analogy from earlier, if I was the coach and some players were better than others, my solution would NOT be to tell the good players to play badly! It would be to teach the bad players to play better!

Just to clarify, because this would be an extremely unpleasant accusation were you not apparently openly saying it, you are painting the group that have been enjoying the game with normal characters as the bad players here?

You also appear to have "extrapolated" the fact that their characters aren't heavily optimised as indicating that they are actively bad/useless.

Straight question based on your basketball analogy: What do you see as more of the purpose of D&D - How do you succeed at it?
Get high numbers?
Have fun with friends?

I mean would you really be happy sitting there in your DM's chair one session and telling most of your group: "Sorry guys, I know you've been having fun playing your current characters, but you five are going to have to scrap them" because of the actions of the other two?

 

[TwoSix]

Just to clarify, because this would be an extremely unpleasant accusation were you not apparently openly saying it, you are painting the group that have been enjoying the game with normal characters as the bad players here?

You also appear to have "extrapolated" the fact that their characters aren't heavily optimised as indicating that they are actively bad/useless.

Straight question based on your basketball analogy: What do you see as more of the purpose of D&D - How do you succeed at it?
Get high numbers?
Have fun with friends?

I mean would you really be happy sitting there in your DM's chair one session and telling most of your group: "Sorry guys, I know you've been having fun playing your current characters, but you five are going to have to scrap them" because of the actions of the other two?

I certainly didn't read that in @Arial Black's post; that post is simply pointing out that any one playstyle COULD be viewed in a bad light if that playstyle is antithetical to the DM's playstyle.

 

[Arial Black]

Just to clarify, because this would be an extremely unpleasant accusation were you not apparently openly saying it, you are painting the group that have been enjoying the game with normal characters as the bad players here?

Well, you've sent three posts my way in this thread, and in each post you've misrepresented my position. Gotta admire that 100% record. : )

I'm saying that it's equally possible to paint either group as the bad guys, which itself demonstrates that neither really is.

I'm also saying that, as demonstrated in the last few posts, it's anti-social behaviour that's the problem. That guy having his PC attack those cavemen was a problem, and the PC could just as easily been poorly or optimally designed.

You also appear to have "extrapolated" the fact that their characters aren't heavily optimised as indicating that they are actively bad/useless.

Straight question based on your basketball analogy: What do you see as more of the purpose of D&D - How do you succeed at it?
Get high numbers?
Have fun with friends?

What is the purpose of playing basketball, winning the game or enjoying playing the game?

It's not one or the other. When I play soccer I play because I enjoy it. But if I'm playing a team game like soccer (or D&D), you better believe I'm going to play as well as I can, and try to improve my skills along the way!

Why would I want to let my team down? Why would I not try and play as skilfully as I can? Why would my coach not teach me to get better?

I mean would you really be happy sitting there in your DM's chair one session and telling most of your group: "Sorry guys, I know you've been having fun playing your current characters, but you five are going to have to scrap them" because of the actions of the other two?

But the OP is saying his other players are not having fun, isn't he? If they are, he has no beef. If they are not, it's because (according to the OP) their PCs are not as good as some other PCs.

If they are happy with their PCs I'll still give them levelling-up advice, laying out the situation and letting them make an informed choice rather than leave them hanging. If they are unhappy with the disparity I'll help them improve rather than tell the skilful players to deliberately play badly.

 

[Zardnaar]

I know how to optimize but you need self restraint when playing with casuals.

Or optimize a support character and make them better they won't care then.

It's how I got Rats the halfling champion.

 

[TheSword]

I know how to optimize but you need self restraint when playing with casuals.

Or optimize a support character and make them better they won't care then.

It's how I got Rats the halfling champion.

Exactly!! Anyone can optimise by reading a guide/watching a video and copying it. That isn’t skill @Arial Black thats cookie cutter character.

Anyone can read a spell tier guide and and select the most effective spells.

Some players - like a group ive been playing with for a year now just select things they think are cool, wouldn’t dream of researching and trust the game to be balanced.

That group has a 6th level sorcadin that only rarely smites - he chose sorcerer levels because enjoys casting spells as well as fighting. It’s the best campaign I’ve ever run. Utterly refreshing as a DM and an absolute pleasure.

Self restraint is a valid approach to a game with friends. Sharpshooter / GWM shouldn’t be compulsory.

@cmad1977 i don’t believe not wanting to be shown up or have the actions of other party members trivialized is limited to young computer game players. My other group has people who have been playing for 3 decades and give short shrift to people who think optimizing a character is a good idea.

 

[TwoSix]

Self restraint is a valid approach to a game with friends. Sharpshooter / GWM shouldn’t be compulsory.

No one is saying optimizing is compulsory, or that you're a bad player if you don't optimize your character. But, you're also not a bad player if you DO take Sharpshooter, or if you follow a build guide or pick the best spells.

The only thing that makes a bad player is one who

a) Has a different play style than others at the table
b) Causes an issue for other players/the DM because of that play style difference
c) Does nothing to fix the issue despite being aware of it.