Dealing with paranoid players

[Wednesday Boy]

Their RP style simply does not work with D&D.

And while many people bash those two as paranoid, they are imop just overly cautionous in a game where, as Wednesday boy puts it, "requires the main characters to be especially curious (arguably wreckless and/or idiotic) for the story to progress."
"Chaerge!!!! in the name of loot and XP", thats the how most D&D adventures, bought or self made, play out.

I don't think that requirement to be especially curious and willing to take risks is specific to D&D, I think it's a requirement for any story with conflict. If Luke wasn't curious enough to seek out the hermit Old Ben Kenobi, there wouldn't have been a Star Wars. If Jimmy Stewart felt awkward about snooping, there would have no Rear Window. If Romeo and Juliet would have heeded their families' wishes to stay away from each other, there would have been no Hamlet.

My point is, regardless of the genre, setting, or system there's an obligation of the players to make their characters curious and take risks so the group can tell a story that's worth telling.

 

[Kzach]

The player who got upset is a special case right now. He has some bad things he is overcoming in real life. He lost the woman he was going to marry to cancer then his business because of the economy and he has been reduced to working odd jobs and being a short order cook at Waffle House.

I had an accident which caused a permanent leg injury which restricts my movement and gave me arthritis in the knee-joint. Before this I was on track to get my handgun license (a pretty big deal in Australia) and was making contacts in the industry of and working towards getting training as a bodyguard (Close Personal Protection).

After the accident I couldn't pursue that career path anymore so I borrowed some money and sunk all my savings into a business. Although I actually built the business quite successfully, the industry itself was in a massive downturn (who rents DVD's these days?) and with the level of competition I was facing I simply couldn't turn a profit. After a year and a half, I had to close my doors and give my stock and everything I owned to debtors.

It's been over six years since my accident and yet I'm only just now coming to terms with it and moving on. I went from someone who had enough confidence in my own ability to be able to protect someone else's life, to someone who had the courage and tenacity to start their own business, all the way down to someone who was afraid to go out the front door. I ended up having to rebuild my entire self-image.

I say this because I want you to know that I have a small inkling of what your friend might be going through. It took me over six years to get through my mess and all I really did was wreck my knee and lose my life savings... well... and get in debt to the tune of about $55,000. Losing someone he loved to cancer is ten million times worse than what I went through and to have that compounded by losing a business would be devastating to say the least.

I'd say we should all cut him some slack. Love, support and friendship is what he needs. If that comes at the cost of a frustrating D&D experience for a couple of other people then so be it.

 

[Pentius]

The player who got upset is a special case right now. He has some bad things he is overcoming in real life. He lost the woman he was going to marry to cancer then his business because of the economy and he has been reduced to working odd jobs and being a short order cook at Waffle House.

The only pleasurable thing he has in his life right now is gaming. He gets over emotional very easily. Sometimes it is hard to deal with but that is what friends do. All of us sometimes find ourselves walking on eggshells around him. But he does acknowledge that we do this and I know how much he values all of our friendships.

It sucks that he's going through a hard time, but he still needs to shape up. If he drives the DM to the point where she quits, he loses the campaign every bit as much as if he gets asked to leave.

 

[Elf Witch]

I think there are several good points made here. Kzach is right in the fact that we need to cut him some slack as he deals with these major losses in his life.

On the other hand Pentius is also right that he needs to realize that there are other players involved as well.

It is about finding a balance. On one hand we do realize that he overreacts to a lot of things right now not just gaming and we need to modify how we approach him and try not to let how he is acting make us also overreact. For example he did apologize to the DM Sunday for how he acted on the phone and was more willing to discuss things.

But he also needs to try a little harder in regaining some of his control. Sometimes it is exhausting being his friend.

As for what he wants out of a game he wants to play a cool character and have his backstory realized. He also does not want his character to die stupidly. He gets frustrated when he thinks other people are not role playing as much as he is. For example he is a big believer that if it didn't happen at the table then it didn't happen. He hates take backs and do overs. He will role player is character even if it is not the optimal thing to do. For example he plays a warlock and he didn't use his eldtritch blast for at least three levels if someone could see it. He does not put ranks in a skill if he has not used it since the last time he leveled.

I think he is finding 3E to be deadly to this type of character hence he plays over cautiously. I think that DM is looking at adding some kind of fate points or something like we had in Shadowrun which was group karma which the group voted on being used for a character in trouble.

The downside of this is that we have a major powergamer in the group who just happens to be the other paranoid player. His rouge/fighter/ holy avenger has a huge amount of hitpoints a 27 AC and is doing mage level area spell damage per round. The DM can't touch him easily unless she cheats. Which she won't do. Which is why she gets frustrated over his paranoia because he seems almost invincible.

So she is a little worried that action points will make him more invincible.

He did play a little less paranoid last session he seemed to making an effort so time will tell.

 

[Kzach]

As for what he wants out of a game he wants to play a cool character and have his backstory realized. He also does not want his character to die stupidly. He gets frustrated when he thinks other people are not role playing as much as he is. For example he is a big believer that if it didn't happen at the table then it didn't happen. He hates take backs and do overs. He will role player is character even if it is not the optimal thing to do. For example he plays a warlock and he didn't use his eldtritch blast for at least three levels if someone could see it. He does not put ranks in a skill if he has not used it since the last time he leveled.

Have you ever heard of the "Stormwind Fallacy"?

Essentially it's an argument that states that it's a fallacy that you can't roleplay and optimise at the same time.

It's a shame you're not playing 4e, otherwise I could help you build a character for him that was nice and powerful

The downside of this is that we have a major powergamer in the group who just happens to be the other paranoid player. His rouge/fighter/ holy avenger has a huge amount of hitpoints a 27 AC and is doing mage level area spell damage per round. The DM can't touch him easily unless she cheats. Which she won't do. Which is why she gets frustrated over his paranoia because he seems almost invincible.

Again it's a shame you're not using 4e as I could help with ways to get around that, although the best way is to just optimise all characters, but there are DM tricks around any character build.

Maybe try a 3.x charop board? I say charop because unlike the stereotype, CO's aren't all munchkin-heads. A lot of them just like to have fun building characters and finding cool combinations. A lot of them are also theorycrafters who purposefully look for holes in the game, not so that they can exploit them, but so that they can be recognised and fixed by the Powers that Be.

Point being is that they often know ways in which to thwart and/or challenge a player who has a powerful character whilst not necessarily hurting any of the other players with dud (yes, I'm being snarky ) characters.

 

[Virel]

<snip>

The downside of this is that we have a major powergamer in the group who just happens to be the other paranoid player. His rouge/fighter/ holy avenger has a huge amount of hitpoints a 27 AC and is doing mage level area spell damage per round. The DM can't touch him easily unless she cheats. Which she won't do. Which is why she gets frustrated over his paranoia because he seems almost invincible.

So she is a little worried that action points will make him more invincible.

He did play a little less paranoid last session he seemed to making an effort so time will tell.

Powergamer? LOL - He's playing the real powergame getting into the DM's head outside of game. He acts scared, but your DM can't touch him easily unless she cheats, which she won't do. How did the character get this way? Who's really in control and calling the shots? It's not you or the DM based on what's been shared.

He's working the angles and playing her, in my opinion.

Certain types of powergamers will do just about anything to get what they want. They will play brinksmanship games with friendship, act like they are friends with another player to get one over, offer bribes, play mind games etc.

A good, honest, fair, caring DM, that puts in a lot of work to make the game a wonderful experience can be very vunerable to manipulative powergamers.
Peace and best of luck to Elfwitch, her DM & friends.

 

[Hussar]

Elfwitch - you mentioned upthread that this is a 10th level (presumably 3e) game. A 27 AC is hardly out of line for that level. A given CR 10 creature is generally running around a +15 (or so) attack bonus, meaning that he should be getting smacked around pretty well.

Heck, a 27 AC is easily achievable at pretty low level. That's about average for a combat oriented character of that level.

I've noticed over the years that sometimes what looks like powergaming is nothing of the sort. I've been accused of powergaming when playing a cleric with two LA's and a 25 point buy value. Being able to create a character that is in line with game expectations is not powergaming.

 

[Black Omega]

As for what he wants out of a game he wants to play a cool character and have his backstory realized. He also does not want his character to die stupidly. He gets frustrated when he thinks other people are not role playing as much as he is. For example he is a big believer that if it didn't happen at the table then it didn't happen. He hates take backs and do overs. He will role player is character even if it is not the optimal thing to do. For example he plays a warlock and he didn't use his eldtritch blast for at least three levels if someone could see it. He does not put ranks in a skill if he has not used it since the last time he leveled.

I think he is finding 3E to be deadly to this type of character hence he plays over cautiously. I think that DM is looking at adding some kind of fate points or something like we had in Shadowrun which was group karma which the group voted on being used for a character in trouble.

Thanks, Elf Witch. Though what you've given me is puzzling. He wants a cool character, playing a coward doesn't fit this in my mind. He's worried about the game being lethal, but the DM is as non killer a DM as I've heard of. She tried talking to him and he freaked out.

So my next question I suppose would be, why does he distrust the DM so much? I'm thinking of Adam Sandler in Anger Management in the scene where he's talking calmly and rationally and everyone else is saying 'Sir, calm down.' Similarly it sounds like the DM could say 'You are traveling along a well maintained road. There are a few trees to the right and a slight mist from the waterfalls up ah---" Paranoid Player butting in "WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL MY CHARACTER AGAIN??"

 

[Elf Witch]

Elfwitch - you mentioned upthread that this is a 10th level (presumably 3e) game. A 27 AC is hardly out of line for that level. A given CR 10 creature is generally running around a +15 (or so) attack bonus, meaning that he should be getting smacked around pretty well.

Heck, a 27 AC is easily achievable at pretty low level. That's about average for a combat oriented character of that level.

I've noticed over the years that sometimes what looks like powergaming is nothing of the sort. I've been accused of powergaming when playing a cleric with two LA's and a 25 point buy value. Being able to create a character that is in line with game expectations is not powergaming.

But a 27 level AC at fifth is kind of bad. He has been almost untouchable since about fourth. He has never been knocked to negatives or even to 1 hitpoint and he is in the front of battle.

Maybe I am looking at it wrong because I just got killed Sunday when my sorcerer got level drained by a vamp and I went from 37 hit points to minus 18 in one freaking hit.

I have spent the campaign getting knocked to negatives dozens of times and so has the warlock though not as much he has 29 AC.

I realize I am also part of the problem here. I am frustrated that my character is never allowed to do anything because I am viewed as reckless. I am also frustrated that I feel as if I can't really contribute anything in combat and I am not allowed to contribute that much outside of combat.

I will also admit that I know the rules better than anyone at the table. So when I see the DM making a mistake I used to point it out but that irritated the other players who told me to stop helping the DM against the players. And they felt that I was overstepping my boundaries and interfering with her DMing.

I do tell her after the game and she tells me she wants me to do this because how else will she learn. But it makes me grit my teeth during the game.

I have become so negative about the game and since we live together she has to put up with my moaning and complaining more than anyone else.

I don't really blame her for just wanting us all to just shut up and try and have a good time.

 

[Elf Witch]

Thanks, Elf Witch. Though what you've given me is puzzling. He wants a cool character, playing a coward doesn't fit this in my mind. He's worried about the game being lethal, but the DM is as non killer a DM as I've heard of. She tried talking to him and he freaked out.

So my next question I suppose would be, why does he distrust the DM so much? I'm thinking of Adam Sandler in Anger Management in the scene where he's talking calmly and rationally and everyone else is saying 'Sir, calm down.' Similarly it sounds like the DM could say 'You are traveling along a well maintained road. There are a few trees to the right and a slight mist from the waterfalls up ah---" Paranoid Player butting in "WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL MY CHARACTER AGAIN??"

He is not that bad. Like I said earlier he tends to view his character as a first level newbie because in game world time we have only been adventuring for four months.

He loves role playing and he stays in character more than any one I ever seen. He feels that four months would not change a person that much. The flip side that we are tying to get him to see is that in those four months we have fought and defeated scores of lizardmen, an evil cult, hoards of undead, a vampire twice, mindflayer and dopplegangers.

He should by this point have more confidence than he did four months ago. Because what we have been through in four months and lived through is more than most people go through in their lifetime.

I know that he and the DM were talking about this privately after the game Sunday.

She was giving him a way to adjust his role playing in a way that made sense to him. He is a freaking method actor and needs his motivation.

My poor DM is dealing with a method actor, powergamer boarding on munchkin who views the game as win or lose and me who wants a consistent type story some fun side things like getting a blink puppy and wanting to keep the owlbear baby we found who also like interacting with NPCs.

She is going nuts trying to achieve all this and to be honest I don't think anyone of us has really been helping her and that includes me.