Dear 4e, Please Stop with the Horrible Portmanteaus!

[Wayside]

Um, you do realize that the thread title isn't "stop the portmanteux", it's stop the horrible portmanteaux."

Although it should be "stop the horrible compounds." I haven't seen any portmanteaus in this thread so far.

Good examples like Blackmoor show that portmanteaus don't have to suck.

But Blackmoor (besides being a compound, not a portmanteau) is a well-known toponym and surname.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Actually, scientific names of organisms are almost always either descriptive or named after somebody. They make perfect sense if you speak latin.

Tyrannosaurus rex means "tyrant lizard king".
Triceratops means "three-horned face"

If I see an arrow shooting demon called "Arcanlothzerra", I better find an in-game language where "arcanloth" means arrow shooting and "zerra" means demon.

Well said.

So why didn't they just name the ole T-Rex "Tyrant Lizard King", skip the latin, and be done with it?


BECAUSE IT IS LAME. So they translated it into "scholarly language"...if they really wanted to "Educate" they'd have named it "Tyrant Lizard King" and been more informative...but that's not what they did.


I'll admit, though, that I'd accept the argument that more scholars actually understoon this language ... as latin was language across language barriers in that scholars all learned it as the chosen language, regardless of native language.


HOWEVER, I'll also say that, in terms of coolness we call them Tyrannosaurs Rex's or T-Rex's.

The culture of entertainment has removed the "easily understood" for the more "mysterious" or "mystifying".

 

[korjik]

Actually, scientific names of organisms are almost always either descriptive or named after somebody. They make perfect sense if you speak latin.

Tyrannosaurus rex means "tyrant lizard king".
Triceratops means "three-horned face"

If I see an arrow shooting demon called "Arcanlothzerra", I better find an in-game language where "arcanloth" means arrow shooting and "zerra" means demon.

-loth means demon, and zerra is shooting.

An Arcanalothzerra is a magic-based missile-shooting demon

 

[Votan]

One option, which I am surprised is not used in 4E (where you can level up critters easily and create a diverse set of encounters based on 101 kobold variations) is to have fewer types of monsters with more depth.

Look at Middle Earth: Orc is also called Ork, Goblin, Urco (high elven), orch (Grey Elven), rukhs (Dwarf), gorgûn (Wild Man) and Uruk.

Types of Orcs had different names (Uruk, Urak-hai, Snaga, Boldog).

There is often a trade-off between depth and breadth when creating a fantasy world (because you need to keep so much in your mind). This is also why well known settings (Middle Earth, Greyhawk) work so well (as players know some elements already so you can introduce new ones.

I suspect that the 4E trade-off is towards breadth -- in which case you need to find a lot of new names that are easy to remember and difficult to get confused. I agree that the naming convention is sup-optimal but choices are limited if you want 100's of monsters, dozens of powers and a lot of outer planes (that will be hard to confuse).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally, I draw the line at Fightbrain.

Here's a really simple experiment: Start a thread and ask "So what words are better?" Get a bunch of suggestions, and then put a poll asking "Which do you like the most?"

This has been done twice - with the Warlord and the Wilden. Both times, the warlord and the wilden were the winners because no one could agree which ones were worse and which better!

And there you go! A "Cool!" test.

Basically, the name needs to be spoken aloud during the design process. Spoken over and over and over again.

If it can't pass a verbal "cool" test, then it had better fit in with some other design goals. For instance, local flora & fauna & locations may have a name in Common that are really just the results of linguistic barriers...like "kangaroo."

For instance, what if "remorhaz" just actually meant "RUN!" in the local language, and the first outsiders saw the people pointing and running away from it thought "remorhaz" was the creature's name. Thus, so it became in Common.

For the record, I like made up names and those that are compound words...but all should pass a "Cool!" test.

 

[Rechan]

One option, which I am surprised is not used in 4E (where you can level up critters easily and create a diverse set of encounters based on 101 kobold variations) is to have fewer types of monsters with more depth.

Do you know the type of FURY that would erupt from D&D players if WotC decided to exclude a lot of monsters that were in earlier editions?

There was mass anger because they chose to put FROST GIANTS in MM2 instead of the first one.

Middle Earth gets away with it because they didn't HAVE four dozen different monstrous humanoids gathered from 3 previous editions of D&D, in addition to all the other monsters acquired over the editions people want.

I suspect that the 4E trade-off is towards breadth -- in which case you need to find a lot of new names that are easy to remember and difficult to get confused. I agree that the naming convention is sup-optimal but choices are limited if you want 100's of monsters, dozens of powers and a lot of outer planes (that will be hard to confuse).

But I think you're on to something. However, you're saying something about them having to be remembered.

No, I think they have to come up with different names so they aren't repeating the same name over and over again.

For instance, each monster group typically has a Skirmisher, a Brute, a Controller, an Artillery, a Lurker and a Soldier. Some have more some have less.

Now, you need a NEW name for each skirmisher. Because "Orc Hunter" and "Kobold Hunter" and "Goblin Hunter" and "Gnome Hunter" is going to make the fans hunt down the guy calling them "hunters" and shoot him in the face. So you need a new compound for each skirmisher/lurker on the same theme.

 

[Elphilm]

As Elphilm's hilarious slip illustrates

What.

The OP objects to horrible compound words, not compound words in general.

 

[Rechan]

What.

The OP objects to horrible compound words, not compound words in general.

And what makes them horrible is in the eye of the beholder. I don't see what's so awesome about "Greyhawk".

 

[nightwyrm]

Well said.

So why didn't they just name the ole T-Rex "Tyrant Lizard King", skip the latin, and be done with it?


BECAUSE IT IS LAME. So they translated it into "scholarly language"...if they really wanted to "Educate" they'd have named it "Tyrant Lizard King" and been more informative...but that's not what they did.


I'll admit, though, that I'd accept the argument that more scholars actually understoon this language ... as latin was language across language barriers in that scholars all learned it as the chosen language, regardless of native language.


HOWEVER, I'll also say that, in terms of coolness we call them Tyrannosaurs Rex's or T-Rex's.

The culture of entertainment has removed the "easily understood" for the more "mysterious" or "mystifying".

They name things in latin partly because it's the language used by educated people of that time and partly because it's a dead language, nobody uses it in everyday life so it won't change over time. T. rex means the same thing 200 years ago as it will 200 years from now. They didn't name things in latin because it sounded cool. People name things to give information about the thing they're naming, not to create bizarre sounding words that tells you nothing.

In a D&D world, I may expect people to name things using an old language like draconic or elvish but that name would actually mean something in those language. Not that it's guaranteed to go well. I was in a dragon themed campaign where the DM named places and things using draconic. The result was not pretty.

 

[Elphilm]

And what makes them horrible is in the eye of the beholder.

I think that much should be obvious to everyone. My only objection was that when I gave examples of compound words that I personally think are evocative, someone suggested that I didn't actually realize they were compound words.