Death, as a plot hook

[Greenfield]

In our current campaign we've removed Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resureection from play. If you want to bring someone back you need to make a trip to the Land of the Dead (whichever one is appropriate for the fallen), find them and bring them safely back out.

It makes bringing someone back a real adventure, and it's worked well for us. It has, however, placed a certain tone on the campaign.

There are a couple of spells that we're considering letting in. We've already permitted Revivification in play. It allows someone to be saved if it's cast the round following their death.

The other is called Revenance (I think) and it brings them back temporarily. It has to be cast shortly, but not immediately, after their death, and it only brings them back temporarily.

The problem is that if you can combine the two, casting Revenance after the fight, and then Revification after the Revenance ends, you have what amounts to a True Resurrection.

Our answer is that somene who comes back this way owes a debt to the sponsoring deity, a marker that can be called at any time. In essence, it's a plot hook waiting to be exploited.

Which brings up the next question: What if you already owe such a debt, and you die again?

What's been proposed is that the character becomes essentially a Ghost, a spirit that can't pass on until its debt is paid.

Aside from providing another potential plot device for the campaign, this places a hard limit on this spell combo.

What do you folks think of this proposal?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

As with all spell combos that can potentially do more then the individual spells were intended to do, It's up to the DM (in your case, DM's) on what to allow. Since you guys already have your death and returning from death mechanic in place, I'd not allow that combo to work, but I don't think that's what your asking.

So, someone who's died, was heroically returned from death, had the gall to go ahead and die again? Ugh, no respect! j/k.

Having the character become a Ghost with a debt to repay sounds like another great plot hook, sure. Mechanically, what would having that character as a ghost look like? I picture Roy Greenhilt from Order of the Stick and his Father, only being able to communicate thru their bloodline but being unable to interact directly upon the world. Maybe only the party members and other key, close individuals can interact with the ghost character, or providing very limiting ability to interact with the world.

Then again, that might be a very unfulfilling way for a player to spend a hours of gametime.

 

[MarkB]

Simple answer: Having such a debt upon you makes you ineligible for Revenance and/or Revivification (DMs' choice).

Personally I'd have it make you ineligible for Revenance.

 

[Greenfield]

As with all spell combos that can potentially do more then the individual spells were intended to do, It's up to the DM (in your case, DM's) on what to allow. Since you guys already have your death and returning from death mechanic in place, I'd not allow that combo to work, but I don't think that's what your asking.

So, someone who's died, was heroically returned from death, had the gall to go ahead and die again? Ugh, no respect! j/k.

Having the character become a Ghost with a debt to repay sounds like another great plot hook, sure. Mechanically, what would having that character as a ghost look like? I picture Roy Greenhilt from Order of the Stick and his Father, only being able to communicate thru their bloodline but being unable to interact directly upon the world. Maybe only the party members and other key, close individuals can interact with the ghost character, or providing very limiting ability to interact with the world.

Then again, that might be a very unfulfilling way for a player to spend a hours of gametime.

Well, as has been suggested, you die with an outstanding debt, you're gone. The plot hook aspect was that we might run into other Ghosts who need help to move on.

For the PC who ends up that way, the only way to bring them back now is to help complete their quest, and then make the trip to the land of the dead.

For the PC, as with any Ghost, they need to successfully possess someone and get them to complete the work. It isn't necessarily the work itself that is the key, but the deceased character being involved in the completion, to pay the debt.

 

[GSHamster]

Seems too complicated for me. You have a theme: no resurrection. Stick to the theme and don't weaken it.

I'd disallow Revenance. Have Revivification be the only spell allowed. Perhaps consider slightly boosting Revivification to must be cast within a minute of death (10 rounds). That's still fast enough to be essentially emergency healing and not true death (the spirit is still hanging around the body and hasn't traveled to the Land of the Dead). But it might help with some of the situations where the standard Revivification is not good enough for your current playstyle.

 

[Sunseeker]

Which brings up the next question: What if you already owe such a debt, and you die again?

What's been proposed is that the character becomes essentially a Ghost, a spirit that can't pass on until its debt is paid.

Aside from providing another potential plot device for the campaign, this places a hard limit on this spell combo.

What do you folks think of this proposal?

My answer is that it depends on the deity. Perhaps the god is mocking you, returning you to live again and again merely so that they can watch you fail. It's not a debt to them, it's a game. On they'll come calling one day, but in the meantime they'll keep letting you ring up your credit card. Why? Because it's fun to play with mortals. Because it pleases them at the moment. Because it's entertaining, because they're bored.

Perhaps a different god granted you life this time. Maybe a god you don't like at all.

Lets say your guy is an elf. You are first granted a second chance by Corellion, because ya know, he likes elves and wants you to recover some sacred elven artifact. But your guy dies before that happens.
So Lolth shows up and revives you, no strings, no quests, does it just to piss off Corellion.
Do you accept such a favor? Really how badly does the character want to return to life? Perhaps she plays a cruel joke on you and returns you as a drider.

Which brings up an interesting note: just because a god brings you back to life, doesn't mean they don't get to determine the definition of "life". Perhaps you are alive but in constant pains, though your wounds have healed, you still feel them at all times.

Otherwise, perhaps people who are Revenanced could perhaps simply gain a mark, like a taint, that prevents or hinders more powerful, life-imbuing spells from being cast upon them such as Revivification.


To me, the combo of Revenance and Revivification is not that bad, it's the use of two powerful(I presume) spells in order to revitalize a single character, that's a lot of resources.

 

[delericho]

We've already permitted Revivification in play. It allows someone to be saved if it's cast the round following their death.

The other is called Revenance (I think) and it brings them back temporarily. It has to be cast shortly, but not immediately, after their death, and it only brings them back temporarily.

The problem is that if you can combine the two, casting Revenance after the fight, and then Revification after the Revenance ends, you have what amounts to a True Resurrection.

In all honesty, if I were going for a "no resurrection" feel to the campaign, I would simply ban the combination of these two spells - rule that revivication must be cast in the round after the character first dies, and thus has no effect on someone under the effect of revenance.

What's been proposed is that the character becomes essentially a Ghost, a spirit that can't pass on until its debt is paid.

Aside from providing another potential plot device for the campaign, this places a hard limit on this spell combo.

What do you folks think of this proposal?

You should probably do whatever is most fun for your campaign. It might be worth checking out "Ghostwalk" for the possibility of playing an undead PC, and thus allowing that ghost to complete his quest. But if the reward for completing the quest is simply that the character is now truly dead, it might be worth skipping even that, simply say the character is gone, and let the player roll up a new PC - there's not likely to be much fun playing through that quest if they know, going in, that the best they can hope for is that the character ends up dead.

YMMV, of course.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Each time the character benefits from Revenance, there's a chance that they come back....wrong....

Maybe they can't use their body very well (roll 1d10 instead of 1d20!). Maybe they smell of brimstone for a moment (gain the Fiendish template until your next sleep). Maybe they see things that are not really there (penalty to Wisdom rolls). Maybe when they touch their friends, they leave an icy patch on the skin. Maybe they can only speak in tongues. Maybe they swap personalities (random alignment change!).

Each time they are revenance'd, there's a chance that this happens...and an additional chance that it becomes permanent.

Personally, I'd probably rule that a creature who benefits from revenance isn't actually restored to life: if the revivification isn't cast on them within that round time span, they're still dead...they just don't really know it yet. When the revenance ends, so does their life, irrevocably. Quite possibly, mix in those nefarious signs for the rest of the duration of the revenance....perhaps they become undead when its duration ends, turning on their former friends?

I'm all for making the use of revenance dangerous and untrustworthy. It's not the kind of spell you depend on, it's the kind of spell you use as a last resort, to pull someone back from the brink for a moment, before they must pass on forever.

 

[Grogg of the North]

I would say that if you receive either Revivification or Revenance you cannot receive the other.

If you've already been revivified, I would say that when a divine caster asks their patron deity for that spell, the deity grants it with the condition that it not be used on X lest bad things happen. Deities have their own agendas and goals. As a mortal servant, you are there to further those goals; the spells deities grant are powerful tools and not to be used lightly.

I would be weary of making a PC into a full on ghost. I've heard horror stories of that.
[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] Does your group allow the spell death pact?