Death in 4e

[Raven Crowking]

I find that I like the new setup - instead of a narrow band of 10 hp between life and death (which is little more than a speed bump at high levels)

I should note that this is not what I meant when I said that what can challenge the PCs without killing them has become narrower.

The way I see it,

X = what you can recover from after a fight. This includes not only hit points, but also ability uses and resources (equipment)

Y = what you cannot recover from after a fight, but that which does not kill you (including expended abilities, resources, etc.).

z = what it takes to kill you.

In general, X + Y = Z.

The broader the band of X, the more fights you can have in a single day. But, if the fight doesn't threaten Y, then it is ultimately a speed bump. Therefore, it is the width of Y that determines the range of potentially meaningful fights. The more Y you can strip away from a character, the more the character can be meaningfully "hurt" from the fight without necessarily being threatened by death.

IMHO, the X band in 4e is wider than in earlier editions, meaning that you can have far more fights, but the Y band is narrower, meaning that there is a smaller range between "meaningful" and "dead".

As the shine wears off, I predict that players will begin to discover that fights threating only X are speed bumps, and will not be interested in them. They will want fights that threaten Y. And they will learn tricks (as gamers do) to broaden the band of X, encroaching on what was Y, to increase their chances of "winning".

And I suspect that there will be splatbooks to help them do that, because that's what sells.

The neat thing about this is that it is a prediction, so whether I am right or wrong (while being somewhat subjective, as we seem utterly unable to register the number of complaints made as a community until WotC does it for us!) is at least theoretically knowable.


RC

 

[ProfessorCirno]

In same ways, 4e reminds me of NWN2. Yes yes, "I STOPPED READING HERE MISTER COMPARES TO VIDEO GAMES." Keep with me on this, I'm not comparing it to video games, I'm just using an example.

In NWN2, there really is no death. Plays that fall in combat get right back up after combat is over. Generally, you either get TPK or win fairly easily. This is how I've seen 4e to play; players going down is different from players dying, and most really don't stay down after the fight is over. And yes, I'm in the camp of believing 4e fights are either really easy, or really difficult, but I'm one of the guys that likes the difficult fights. I'd rather have my character go down fighting in an exciting battle then mow through another five groups of goblins and orcs with all the excitement of putting jam on bread. Only without the jam on bread.

Now I'm hungry.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In same ways, 4e reminds me of NWN2. Yes yes, "I STOPPED READING HERE MISTER COMPARES TO VIDEO GAMES."

I stopped reading when you began using caps lock.





Okay, I admit, I didn't. But that's my fault.

Keep with me on this, I'm not comparing it to video games, I'm just using an example.

In NWN2, there really is no death. Plays that fall in combat get right back up after combat is over. Generally, you either get TPK or win fairly easily. This is how I've seen 4e to play; players going down is different from players dying, and most really don't stay down after the fight is over. And yes, I'm in the camp of believing 4e fights are either really easy, or really difficult, but I'm one of the guys that likes the difficult fights. I'd rather have my character go down fighting in an exciting battle then mow through another five groups of goblins and orcs with all the excitement of putting jam on bread. Only without the jam on bread.

You're pointing out something that I noticed myself - you can often avert TPKs if the last man standing is able to "win" the fight - since most of your allies will be dying, and might still have one or two saves going on for them. Though this changes significantly (as MerricB noted) when you add ongoing damage into the mix.
(If we want to look out for power creep in monsters, check for damaging auras and ongoing damage? Does it become more prevalent?)

Now I'm hungry.

I suggest eating something. I've heard it helps.

 

[Spatula]

Your model doesn't strike me as being very accurate. For one thing, all combat in all editions "threatens" your Y, unless you take no damage at all or take so little damage that you can sleep it off. Practical hit point recovery requires the expenditure of daily and/or consumable resources.

And an "average" fight in pre-4e D&D requires spellcasters to use daily resources, and yet those fights are speed bumps. In fact, it's usually not till the spellcasters are tapped out that fights stop being cakewalks. The more Y there is, the more speed bumpage you get, rather than the reverse as you propose.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Your model doesn't strike me as being very accurate.

(Shrug)

It might not be. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Or the second. Or the third. I guess we'll find out over the next couple of years.


RC

 

[howandwhy99]

I would say 4E looks to be like a game set on (Easy) Difficulty Level. You can change the difficulty level with house rules, but much of what affects PCs has been weakened compared to 3.x and pre-D20 D&D. It's not that you can't die, it's that it is easier to stay alive or remain unhampered. Especially without too much forethought.

Irontooth was a goblin with troll stats. Given his XP reward total, he was a design error.

 

[Spatula]

Irontooth was a goblin with troll stats. Given his XP reward total, he was a design error.

What? Irontooth doesn't have troll stats. The reason why the encounter is dangerous is that it's two fights in a row.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

So, you know how boxing gloves actually made it easier to punch hard...

This.

As a DM, I am happy now that I feel I can roll criticals against my players and not worry about accidentally killing them...

...and at the same time I can see my players bite their nails when their characters become bloodied or fall unconscious.

I haven´t had any deaths in my game yet, but there have been some close calls that made everybody worry.

...just as it should be!

edit:

What? Irontooth doesn't have troll stats. The reason why the encounter is dangerous is that it's two fights in a row.

Exactly, there´s nothing spectacular about Irontooth by himself, only with the large number of kobolds that come with him, and the fact that a lot of parties would cross the waterfall immediately after defeating the previous encounter.

 

[ventu]

the problem with 4E is that either it's a TPK, or at the end of the encounter, the group will be at complete.
Indeed a single action is sufficient to stabilize you, and of course you also have the opportunity to recover (20+ on saving throw). And if we follow the rules (and I DON'T) 500 GP are sufficient to resurrect a PC in the heroic tier, with no questions.
It seems to me that, either you do a lot of coup de grace (which I DO as a DM) and you make resurrection rituals a lot less common (which is my case) or death would be quite a joke.
IMHO stabilizing a dying character should be harder and take more time if he is "closer to death" (fails on the death saving throw) but I didn't introduce this house rule yet.

 

[hopeless]

Well in the online game I'm playing in we've mostly lost characters whose players have left the game.
BUT currently we have two dwarf PCs down perhaps stabilised but within the threat range of a giant with my character down to maybe 3hp shifting two squares away from the other two remaining PCs (both wizards) in the hopes that the giant will go for one of us and my character's the one most likely (read closest) to be that target (PS: We're all first level in case you're wondering... at all).

Already generated a replacement since I'm the one whose been in the giant's face the most out of the three who engaged it in melee and I did try to tell the other two to pull back and let the wizards area effect the monster but to no avail, still got warned for trying to roleplay a reaction to the dwarves inability to disengage (please note one dwarf PC did pull back unfortunately I had already typed my reply long before I received that message).
So impossible to die?
No I think it is VERY possible to get killed.